Some independent retailers are taking a strong stand against Games Workshop's new release "Death from the Skies", and banning it from their stores. Its not what is in the book that has become the issue, but rather that the release is direct only.

By not allowing it in their stores, in at least my opinion, they are creating a bigger problem, but that is not the topic here.

I have a lot of sympathy for independent business owners that have to fight just to keep alive in this economy and administration. Its rough out there, and when you deal with a supplier that makes it rough on you, there are going to be some serious sleepless nights trying to figure it out. Its no wonder that most independent game store use the card game Magic to keep their doors open.

Getting right to the subject, here are two responses to Games Workshops latest releases.

The Games Workshop Problem
by Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games 
I wrote in 2005 that if you had just started carrying Games Workshop, you would never know they had previously been the most reviled games company on the planet. They were helpful. flexible, and actively supported retailers ... in 2005. Before that, they actively undermined independent hobby stores and the you only need to scratch the surface to hear horrifying tales from back then.

Why the change in 2005? It's the kind of corporation that doesn't change their policies until the existing policies stop working. So when sales slump, they try new things, like not being a dick. Well, sales were up 10% in 2012, so don't expect positive changes anytime soon.

The latest issue is their new Aerial Combat book, a direct only product that allows for flyers to be used by armies that didn't get them before, along with a lot of background fluff to justify it. Pat Fuge of Gnome Games in Wisconsin has banned it from in-store use, and many stores, ours included are following suit. It's likely a good book, no doubt, that may even drive sales of expensive flyers, but the decision to sell an important rulebook direct is just another slap in the face to independent retailers, a money grab by Games Workshop.

We're not only banning the book from use in our events, but we're taking a break from our "live and let live" approach and actively encouraging Games Workshop players to jump the fence and join us playing Warmachine and Hordes. Warmachine is on fire at our store, with sales up 230% last year and staff actively playing during our Wednesday and Sunday events. You should really check out this game, especially if you haven't tried the new edition.

Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse.

We will not allow Games Workshop to determine the fate of our store. I apologize if this puts you in the middle, an enthusiastic hobbyist victimized by a companies poor policies (you decide who). I think the book might even drive sales of flyers to those who don't have them now, but that's not the point. We have to draw the line."



Here's an open letter from Pat Fuge, CEO of the Gnome Games retail chain in Wisconsin:
credit goes to Robert Pace over on "This is Why We Can't Have Nice Things" for bringing this letter to our attention.
"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.

GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email ihategw@gnomegames.com for details."

"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."

115 Comments:

  1. from warseer (and dakka)

    "Hello there,

    Thanks for writing into us. Sorry for any confusion there may have been. Independent Retailers will be able to order this product just like any other Direct items. I also wanted to clarify that Death From the Skies is a compendium not a rules book. It reprints things previously printed in other books. If you have any other questions please contact us at 1-800-394-4263.

    Games Workshop
    North America Customer Services "

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    1. The issue I have with the above statement is that it is not true, at least by the definitions I am familiar with for "compendium". There ARE rules changes, point cost changes, etc., so it is NOT simply a collection of previously published material. Just look at the latest round of FAQ's for the "we've made some rule changes, refer to the new book we're selling for them". But what do I know, I don't actually have the book :-)

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    2. You're not wrong, at the very least you now need this book, or the digital version of the Space Marine codex, to play the Stormtalon, as the White Dwarf entry was completely invalidated and the FAQs for that entry removed. That's not something I'd call a compendium or anything that was previously published, it's brand new. And that's just one example, who knows what else has changed until people start getting the book in their hands.

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    3. This availability never happened, by the way.

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  2. Guess they should also ban models that were purchased on ebay? Or downloaded codices?

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    1. lol, logic should not be applied at this time...

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    2. Re-read the article. The Independents' objection is specifically because the item is direct exclusive, and therefore forces customers to go directly to GW.

      Ebay doesn't force people to buy miniatures there, and Independents' can therefore compete on fair terms with Ebay sellers.

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    3. the rulebook was noting more than a flimsy justification for asshats who are already in the hate crowd, as losing on a one time purchase is a minor economic setback, especially since any of the kits needed to make the rules work cost between 150% to over 200% of the cost of the rulebook. Simple reaction to the asshatery is to not go into any of the shops banning the bookuntil they rescing their policy, and to never set foot into a shop attempting to pimp warmachine again for their bullshit.

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    4. The problem is there is nowhere to legally get the rules released in white dwarfs. GW NEEDS to make any rules released in white dwarf available for download in some format.

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  3. this all sounds pretty bitchy to me. "if we can't sell your toys, you can't play with them in our house."

    call these guys a waaaambulance or something.

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    1. and its not even true
      they can sell them... just not to the price GW sells them for if they want to make a buck too.
      So either they can sell them for higher price or make no profit. In both cases they order them via direct only as if they were just a "normal" customer.

      banning GW books is redicules
      they might as well bann GW all together
      GW wont care about this
      Their just hurting players and their own shops

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    2. Exactly, my local store owner told me I could order it through him any time I wanted, but he won't be keeping it in stock. If I picked it up that way I would probably also pick up a flyer or two when the book came in. GW gets to be greedy and my local store owner gets to sell a model he may not have had he not offered it to me.

      Not exactly win-win, but at least nobody loses.

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    3. According to my FLGS he pays about 60% on normal GW items and about 75% on the direct only stuff (which he stocks pretty much -all- of) and he makes a nice turn over on it. Sure it generally costs more to buy the stock, which means the return isn't as good, but by having it we don't go online and get it from GW because he has it -right there-.

      So it's not even that they won't make money, they just won't make -as much- money on each item sold so they're throwing a fit.

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    4. I would have loved if the store I shop at would carry direct only models and stuff... Although I do shop at GW, so I get the benefit of ordering directly to the store, but I still have to wait for my stuff to arrive, and it is about a 40minute drive to get there for me.
      So having a store stock all the direct only stuff would see a lot more purchases from me I think.

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    5. they're definatly throwing a greed motivated fit. but of course they're accuseing GW of being the greedy ones

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  4. Seems like a bit of a vicious circle to me, GW is restricting something from independent retailers as some of them (ok, probably a very small minority) have made products available to customers prior to their official release date (I know of someone who had the 6th ed rulebook 5 days before it was officially out, so I know for a fact it happens). Independent retailers bite back by saying they're not going to stock GW stuff.

    Seriously, the ONLY people winning from this are the companies like warmachine who are finding their products pushed more by the independents. Some people will never go to the other game systems, so independent's customer base drops if they stop selling GW, GW loses some of its customers to those that do switch systems (though I can't see it being enough to hurt their sales particularly) and those of us in the middle may find it harder to find a stockist/suffer from poorer relations between GW and our local centre/get fed up of reading about how GW are the worst most horrible company in the world. Newsflash - I'd be pretty narked if I sold a product to a stockist with a release date and I found out they'd been selling it almost a week early!

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    1. I understand why the independents are up in arms. I have two close, and one not so close friends who own FLGS's.

      One stopped carrying GW products because of GW's requirements. And while we enjoyed playing there (21' table and scenery better than GW's), the owners were upfront about minimum order requirements, stocking levels, and that with the GW wholesale price they weren't making enough money for the shelf space they were giving up. So out the GW product went -- and profits went up.

      Other friend has a store on a large college campus and takes advantage of newcomers who already play GW games and like the opportunity to play at school. I am too afraid to ask if they could support GW if they didn't have such a huge MTG following.

      Not-so-close friend has two stores, one in a mall that draws from a large area with no GW retailers nearby, the other in a rich (really) suburb where lots of parents don't mind footing the bill for an expensive hobby for Billy. His situation is more like what other FLGS deal with, and still I've heard him grumble about whether the money is worth the hours he puts in to keep the community interested and the product moving. Ans he moves $1000's per order cycle. I also know for a fact that mall store supports suburb store's GW tab.

      Needless to say these are the ONLY GW retailers in the area that have survived. Everyone else either couldn't move enough product to make money, or couldn't meet GW's minimum order requirements, and therefore couldn't maintain a community of players. Should I also add that of the three local GW stores, one had to close down, one downsized drastically, and one is holding it's own, but its the only store in its state, so GW probable will keep it open no matter what.

      When I got into the hobby there were easily 10 retailers that I knew of that hosted leagues. Now, not so much. But there area a lot of FLGS's that will curse GW's name if you ask if they carry the product.

      YMMV

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    2. ^This.
      I live in a small German city which used to have a FLGS run by two of my friends, a tradiditional toy&hobby store (mostly trains) and a 4 times bigger, newly opened toy&hobby store. Since 2005, all of them had GW. In 2012, my friends went bancrupt and the big store has blown out every GW item in stock and ceased selling it. The traditional store (been here since the 70's) has still a small display with mostly colours and some rhino-, tac marine- and chimera-boxes. Just because of our club making a deal (we get 10 percent if we order over them) they kept it in their stock.
      The reasoning behind it is all the same (although the death of trading cards put the final nail into the coffin of my friends' shop, but GW was always an almost non-profit business they kept for the few buyers there were): The internet - and that's not the asshat from maelstrom. It's the direct sale policy that drove customers away from shops. The FLGS didn't get any notice in time anymore for new releases, less and less products became available for a reasonable profit span, the small shops were prohibited from giving out a discount on bigger purchases. And then: the yearly price increase that led to raging customers in the shop and further dropping sales as most of these turned to the internet (wayland, maelstrom, etc.) to at least save a little bit of money. On the same occasion, the official GW-salesman would appear and force small shops to stock vastly oversized ranges they couldn't sell off in a year or their profit span would be cut further.
      Whereas with Flames of war or Warmachine or even Magic, there was always a way of getting out a good deal for the customer, the shop owner and the respective selling company.
      I believe the other shop owners from above when they say that they are fed up with being bullied around for selling GW products.

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  5. I really want to support Independent retailers, but if this is the approach they take... well they are no better than GW.

    Discounts on WarMachine/Hordes for old GW books, well that is quite simply taking sides, something no Independent person/company should do.

    Yeah, GW is a real female dog at times, but being one yourself is not the way to change that.

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    1. Agreed! Makes me wonder if Privateer Press is offering some sort of incentive here to do this. You can push PP stuff all you want many players aren't ever going to play it given the cost and terrible casting on the figures [don't get me started about the joke that is their plastic] and ruleset that practically requires a spreadsheet to play!

      These guys need to grow up there are always going to be exclusives released online by companies, Independent Retailers are often complete dogs to work with and employ the lowest forms of human life.

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    2. No independant shop should take sides?

      Listen I think such a ban is ridiculous. But imagine if you made 100 dollars to sell a warmachine book, and 2 dollars to sell a GWS one. I think you'd take sides pretty quick. An exaggeration, but it makes sense that a independent retailer would want GWS dead and more people playing games that help local retailers.

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    3. In an interesting contrast Wayland Games in the UK is advertising a Death from the Skies tournament at Tabletop Nation in which all sorts of flyers are allowed, including forge world flyers so that armies that don't have codex flyers can field one. They've even added some additonal rules for extra war gear on the flyers.

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    4. Attempting to passively get people to play one system over the other in such ways as:
      -Running tournaments for the system
      -Running demo's for the system
      -Offering introductory deals
      -Staying more knowledgeable and up to date

      Are one thing, and its not taking sides. Its merely investing in the higher return items. Publicly criminalizing one company and going so far as to ban items from a producer from your store is definitely a step beyond good business. I honestly feel this will only end up hurting sales in the long run. Sure some players may switch, but some players will just stop altogether if they feel unwelcome.

      Another point, PP is a much lower cost game to have an army, and from what I see they don't really have a lot of new releases every month or even new stuff. Once the big bump from people buying PP is gone, i foresee a large dip in sales as people complete armies and stop buying new products.

      TL:DR version
      When someone points a gun at you, the best option is NEVER to shoot yourself in the foot.

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  6. Neither GW's attitude nor this store's response are responsible ways to treat customers.

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    1. Agreed, responding to bad behavior, with bad behavior, doesn't make you justified.

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    2. While the idea is sound in that two wrongs do not make a right, it presumes that GWs act is malicious. Consider a different perspective: The book is intended as a loss leader, that is, a product that you receive little to no profit on in order to encourage other, related sales. If this is the case, selling it direct only means that GW takes the loss, while the lgs gains the sales. One of my local shops carries a lot of direct only product explicitly because of this. He makes little profit comparatively on the direct only product, but ends up with larger sales because customers buy other products to go with the direct only purchase.

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  7. I don't get it, if sales are up from Warmachine and Hordes, what do these guys care? They even note that they may have benefited from the release, but I doubt they would now. I mean, if I went to this store regularly and then found out that something I had purchased was banned from it just because I couldn't purchase it from that store, I would definitely begin looking for a new store. I mean, could I only play a system that they sell? What if I picked up Infinity and they don't carry it, would that be "contraband"? Where is the line drawn?

    I can understand the frustration these guys must feel, but this feels more like they're trying to make a point and, in the process, hurting the hobbyist who they expect to completely blame GW.

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  8. I don't really get how you ban the book, its just a compendium of rules. Are they saying you can't take a Space Marine list with a Storm Raven in their store?

    And while I appreciate their frustration and passion, pushing the faux steampunk game to replace a space opera fills me with resentment. Just because I play Warhammer does not mean I will play some other game you shovel at me just because it also includes minatures. No tanks, no planes, no space travel, Warmachine could not be less interesting to me. I literally can't think of a way the game could be less appealing, maybe a My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic tie in. Actually, I feel the same about Bronies as I do about Privateer Press. So please, stop acting like the games are interchangeable, steampunk will never, ever, ever be interesting the way science fiction is.

    Pitch Dropzone Commander, Infinity, hell even Dust Warfare, something that at least kind of feels like it belongs in the same category as 40k.

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    1. I want the my little pony game!!!!!!! Awsome.

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    2. Melon Head, I feel like with a bit of thought, one could actually pitch a MLP: FIM miniatures game. The odd adult fanbase of the show surely has enough disposable income to support such a game.

      Rhasputine, thank you for reminding me that I need to have that on my list of games to buy.

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    3. I'll just leave this here:
      http://ponyhammer-40k.deviantart.com/

      Oh, maybe this also:
      http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424613.page

      Ah, what the heck. Another:
      http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/02/wargames-gallery-2-03-13.html

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    4. Snowtrooper, you've won me over, My Little Pony is better than Warhmachine.

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    5. Great phrasing 'faux steampunk'. Warmachine isn't that steampunk to me; not enough brass, cogs and smoke! :P
      MLP: FIM... I'll wait for the Heavy Metal Robot Unicorn Attack: Friendship Is Dead expansion pack ;D

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    6. Jon, I just laughed out loud at work

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    7. Jon, your comment on MLP will be my signature if I ever join a forum. That was pure genius!
      And Ian, I couldn't agree more on the Warmachine/40k issue. I've tried it once or twice, and even from a mechanics point of view (ignoring the fact I have no interest in the background), it falls apart at larger games, in comparison to 40k. By now, I only play the hobby for that sort of thing. It's no fun without a table covered in models, and Warmachine cannot offer me a game that copes with that. Anyway, how can you leave the incredibly rich backstory of the 40k universe for a reasonably generic fantasy/steampunk crossover?

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    8. Are these the ponies your looking for?

      http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424613.page

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    9. Cheers guys! So when are we going to start designing the prototype? ;)

      Jon 'Friendship Is Dead' Wilko

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  9. Well considering that the book(let) sold OUT within 3 days, it is unlikely that GW will change it's practices based on this compendium's sales performance. That's not to say that I agree with their decision to release the updated rules in the manner they chose to do so. Quite the opposite, in fact. It is my opinion that the updated rules to allow use of new vehicles in the Space Marine, and Black Templars armies should have been made public in an errata / FAQ update on their website. Still if they make future releases based on this one's performance alone then we will likely see it repeated. However, if they poke about in various forums and see the response this mechanism generated and give the matter serious consideration it should inform them of the unhappy status of much of their consumer base.

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  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  11. Hahaha, only in America is all I'm saying. No more wearing Nike trainers in the Adidas store's either? :)

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    1. Try using non gw in a gw store.

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    2. You think McDonald's let you sit there with a bucket of KFC?

      ... They don't btw -_-

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    3. Mmm... and I guess that's an argument pro the insane policy used by some independents to protest against GW.
      Honestly I think the insanity lies on both sides.
      Next step is GW not selling products to them and the hobby suffering (even further).

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  12. I feel that GW made a bad choice in which book they made direct only. Fliers are the 'new' hotness, and making an integral part of the game direct only hurts the Indy stores. I can see if there were an expansion done like this, say Boarding Battles or Skirmish.

    People have been complaining and gnashing their teeth about GW for years, and now these stores are doing something about it. While I agree it was a little bit of a 'I'm taking my toys and going home type of approach, I'm not sure what else they could have done in taking a last straw stand.

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    1. They could've stopped selling GW and banned it from their store altogether. This is a wishy washy way of doing it. They'll still allow you to play GW games, but only in a way that makes them money. I understand as a business they should want to maximize their profits, but I think this is a knee-jerk reaction to a frustrating situation and it's really only going to hurt their customers while GW will most likely just shrug their shoulders.

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  13. Probably the most pathetic story I've ever read.

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  14. Probably the most pathetic story I've ever read.

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  15. This is ridiculous behavior on the part of the Independent Retailers, I love how they whine and complain but none of them are willing to drop GW completely, why? It makes them too much money for their coffers! Warmachine/Hordes no matter how hard you push it is never going to be the same type of money maker GW is, the models are static and poorly cast and a ruleset that actively removes conversion opportunity doesn't help, and the costs of the figures are even more expensive in many cases than GW. If i were GW I would pull their license to carry their product until they stop banning products and using it as an opportunity to push a competing product.

    The other thing I would point out is that if you are lucky to live in an area where you get great support from a Independent Retailer good for you, but out here in Utah we have poorly run companies that employ the lowest forms of life possible to handle the miniatures side of things, so yes I go direct at times, thats my right, behaviors such as banning books will only make me more likely to do so and ACTIVELY boycott my local store!

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  16. I actually agree with Warlord22 for a change, what a pile of petty crap.

    They can buy the book direct from GW and sell it on at a small mark-up, after all they're not going to have to pay postage on the book alone, they'll have ordered other stuff too so I can't see why having to order it in at price is a massive biggy. They pay the asking price, stick it in as part of a bulk order to lessen the overall postage and bosh, sell it for a bit more then the face value so it's an impulse buy for gamers in-store who then pay the same or slightly less then they would've if they'd ordered it themselves and paid for postage.

    Oh wait, the players have gone elsewhere because their mates who want to buy and use a Stormraven with their Codex Marines can't do so in that establishment.

    Or is there a problem here that I don't get? I mean I'm a gamer with a brain, not a shop-owner "in the know".

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    1. GW actually does give discounts on direct only stuff to stores i believe. It is typically just less than the "normal" discount. I believe the retailers pay about 70-80% of MSRP

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    2. Even less of a problem then?

      :S

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  17. I can't help but feel like independent stores are taking the book the wrong way.

    **Note: my local GW isn't stocking it either. It's direct only for everyone, so even official stores are making no money off of it.**

    Sure, maybe they could have made a few bucks selling the book, but it's not what it was designed for. I see this book as the salted peanuts of the game store. Bars make no money giving away peanuts to patrons. In fact, they're spending money to do so. What they are making, however, is money off the drinks that patrons are buying because they're thirsty from, you guessed it, eating peanuts. This book isn't anything great, but it does make players want to buy flyers, which tend to be much more expensive than a $33 book. That's its purpose. Give it one second's thought, retailers.

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    1. This is exactly why it shouldn't be direct only.

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    2. I'm not arguing that it deserves to be direct only. Far from it. I think direct only doesn't just cut out indep stores, but also those who simply don't order online (younger players come to mind). My point is that the uproar and banning of the book is out of place, as at worst all it does is nothing, and at best, drives flyer sales. The meager profit gained from stocking this book would pale in comparison to players buying flyers for their army.

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    3. I still don't want to buy a flyer. Nothing for tau eldar or space wolves still!

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    4. Save up enough money and buy a Storm Eagle, I'm sorry your airplane is more expensive but stop saying you don't have options you do, just not as cheap of options.

      PS I pay Black Templar and I'd rather have a Storm Eagle instead of a Stormraven anyway.

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    5. Already own a storm eagle pal, you can't use it at warhammer world taurnies

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    6. storm eagles BTW are by direct only. ya know just saying

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  18. we will not have this problem in Brazil, there are no stores that sell GW products here :(

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  19. Independent retailers need to defend their economic stability- to defend this stability you see markets that choose to exhibit bans. This is the same thing countries do to one another all the time-bans, tariffs, whatnot. Sometimes the only way to change things is by hitting someones wallet. Games workshop is trying to cut them out of the profits, independents respond by trying to scare GW that this tactic will lead to less money for them not more. Perfectly fair to do, and smart. Maybe not the smartest thing they could do but a good option non the less. Yes we the consumers might suffer slightly from this but GW has a monopoly on our hobby,(rightfully so in a way), but if nobody stands up to them with scares to theier wallet than they will do dumber things such as keep increasing the price and direct only sales. If this is allowed to happen than GW will still make more money because the increases in price but they will lose more and more of us which will cause them to jack the prices more and more-- competition is very important for societal good. Having all the power for anything generally leads to more people loosing out, its basic economics. I applaud the effort to change GW policies.

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  20. What was that Mr Store Owner? I can't play with this stuff in your store? If i can't play with what I want in your store I will not go to your store. I will go to the other one that lets me use the stuff I paid for.

    The FLGS that allows this book and/or the units is going to sound less whiney, less annoying and less problematic to visit. So yeah, not a smart idea.

    Can I hear Backfiring?

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  21. Hmm... Let's say that GW had taken a converse approach; offering this book through the usual wholesale distribution chain but with a minimum order -- now retailers would possibly make a buck BUT would also have to face an exposure if the book is an unsellable turkey. Doubtless the independents would be bitching about that as well.

    As to the book selling out, I'd bet that GW ordered a small print run due to uncertainty as to how well this things going to sell (also why they went English-only).

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  22. I agree with Natfka: this is an stupid decision from the independent retailers...

    - So GW pisses you and your decision against that is "doing the same" to them?

    - Doing that the problem will be yours: if your customers can´t play GW games with their latest acquisitions in your store, they´ll look for another one where they can. And with them, their friends.

    - You will miss more and more sales.

    Of course GW move was not a perfect one, but this is a silly move from that stores, I think

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    1. And yes, I can understand the stores owners and why they have done that, but... I still think that´s a silly move.

      The one that will loose players, customers and money will be your stores

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    2. I agree that there is a serious potential to loose customers but I think stores have to look out for themselves. GW wants a direct line so they dont have any cut in. This alone is a bad idea because it lowers there customer base to those who only check there website. They will cripple themselves if they only sell to those who buy direct from GW. Independent retailers are where I have played every single warhammer fantasy and 40k game, except the occasional house game. This is also where I buy my models, not directly from GW. So what should these stores do? Just let GW keep cutting them out? Everyone loses if that happens-less players +less places to play(cause they will change to something else)= less warhammer hobby which = less money for GW in the end. Companies do this kind of crap all the time because they only look at short term profits. Its a dumb move from GW and retailers are protecting themselves.

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  23. There are a few issues here.

    1) You are making a decision for your customers, who, if you have the only FLGS around, you are forcing out of one of their social environments and basically wasting money they have already spent. These stores are all some kids have and you are telling me you aren't going to let them play with the toys they bought from you because one of the many games you sell isn't being nice to you?

    2) I hope you aren't allowing Forge World at your store, because they didn't buy those books or models from you either. I have already seen people who push for FW at tourneys (nothing wrong with that) also say that this book should be banned, which is hypocracy.

    3)So, you are going to offer this sale if they trade to Warmachine? Not Flames? Not Infinity? Not anything else? Just Warmachine ... I smell a rat here, especially when it is multiple stores saying "Warmachine." Could Privateer Press be sensationalizing and encouraging this to make a profit and shut GW out of places?

    4) I have seen local stores battle this issue by letting GW know they are pissed, then letting people order the book and offer the person a discount if they purchased a flyer from the shelf the day they order the book. Get lemons, make lemonade.

    5) Some store owners and blogs are to blame for this. If you hand stuff off to a known blogger, forum poster whatever and he posts it on his blog where you can look at his other posts and figure out where he is from, it can be assumed pretty easily that A) he got it from an independent store and B) that the local stores aren't playing by the rules they agreed to upon carrying the product. I would be pretty pissed too.

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    Replies
    1. I think you are right but at the same time I think the blame is completely on GW. They push, people have to push back or they will get pushed around more.
      1)I didnt read a ban on all flyers just on the book and extra rules. This probably wont even effect many games... so probably wont cause much contention.
      2)I agree about the Forge World but would like to point out there pricing structure--Its crazy how expensive FW stuff is. Like seriously crazy.( maybe this is just me but I cant shell out that kind of dough)
      3)Hahaha I have to agree! Its strange that it is only "Warmachine" that is mentioned. If it is a rat though its a smart one cause they moved on GW's mistake.
      4)Good idea I think, but how far do you let GW push you? What if they cant buy both from the store right then?
      5)Information is important for us consumers to have. I didn't hear about this being direct only or the business issues this might cause until I saw it here. Its important to be able to see the issues and be able to respond to protect the very specialized hobby.

      Delete
    2. "I think you are right but at the same time I think the blame is completely on GW."

      No offense man, but that's cognitive dissidence. If the store is making the decision for their customers then they must accept some culpability for that decision.

      And if they put a ban on the book that now means that Black Templars and any SM player who doesn't own an ipad cannot play what is now a legal list in their tournaments. Though TOs have prerogative in deciding what is and isn't kosher, you're essentially cutting off a huge tactical area for at least one army and actively discouraging local players from being able to create the lists that they want. As far as a customer goes, you better have a better excuse than "I can't make enough money off of this" for doing that or else someone will open a new store to attract those customers.

      Delete
    3. Uhh... if you read my complete comment I share my opinion on what I feel is right and wrong about what he stated above. No offense man, but that's not really cognitive dissidence.
      But why quibble?

      I think that you are correct- store owners need to be able to face the reality of the decisions to ban certain things. What you describe above absolutely could happen. And I also agree that it would be a shame to lose tactics.
      I disagree that a new store will marvelously appear to capture the tiny audience you are talking about. Like I said above- I dont think this will really cause that much contention-even if store owners enforce it which they most likely wont. The market for hobbyists like you and I is very small and very difficult to make a profit in(for local small business owners not GW) I have seen 3 independent retailers close in 5 years who's biggest seller was GW models. New stores will not appear to capture the "banned" list users. All their hobby friends will be there so they wont leave either.
      Hypothetically you are correct- if there were no barriers to entry for this specialized hobby, new "no ban" stores would open. But in reality this isnt going to happen. Gamers will go where they have been going.

      Delete
  24. I have a really nice store-owner were I live so he wouldnt do anything like that, he even let people play with stuff like plastic muggs as drop pods when trying new builds within his store and I buy stuff from him because he has a friendly attitude and good store to hang around in. If store are starting doing this I would buy everything from wayland games instead

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I used to play in a GW store that just thought it was humorous when a friend of mine used a lantern battery for his drop back way back in the day when the only model was the FW one. I can't even fathom having a shop owner coming over to my game and looking over my models to tell me what's okay to use.

      Hearing this tale of insanity really makes me grow to appreciate my local shops a lot more.

      Delete
  25. I wonder what would happen if all independent stockists took this attitude. Results would be interesting to see if not a little scary.
    I do think both are dependent of each other but then I know GW would the last ones to realize that before it were too late.

    ReplyDelete
  26. My FLGS said they can get them, it just turns out that they are sold out at the moment. I know in the past that when I was trying to order Character models that my FLGS didn't stock the manager said they are direct ship only (meaning it take about an extra 2 weeks to receive, that's all).

    ReplyDelete
  27. FYI, after much discussion on Facebook, Gary Ray rescinded his ban stating that his dealings with GW should be between him and the company and not unfairly affect customers.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Sounds like someone is taking their toys and going home!

    Honestly though, it wasn't like LGS cannot sell the book, they just need to order it (you know, like everything else they need to order).

    I don't find it as a money grab either...

    However, overall, absolutely asinine and there will be no real point to using the book outside of point adjustments.

    If some shmuck tells me I can't use my storm talons for 20 points cheaper because I didn't buy the booker - oh well, probably not someone I wanted to play anyway.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, they need to order it and pay it fullprice. Yeah... 0% profit. Makes a lot of sense. At least so is in Italy.

      Delete
  29. A couple things...

    I wouldn't support a FLGS that imposed its views on me and banned material for me to use.

    They did this with Pathfinder and D&D. I liked D&D 4th edition and would be offended with a FLGS that took sides between Paizo and WotC.

    Faiet212 mentioned the 'economy and administration'. I currently like the Obama administration thank you very much.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I think discussion goes the wrong way. GW was monopolist for quite a long of time, but now they have a strong opponent (PP) and what is they answer ? Let's make prices higher, useless boxes (for example - can someone explain me the why should i buy twin Helldrake box if there's no prices drop???) and print book without showing what's inside - buying Death from the skies is like buying cat in the bag. It's really bad behavior, showing that GW threats it's customers only as walking wallets. I think that's the point

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nice- I agree. GW's needs a new idea about how to expand its profits instead of price hikes.
      For example I have 3 friends who would love to play and would be great additions to our Warhammer community. But we are poor college kids and 300-500 or more to have an army is a lot of money.

      Delete
    2. Twin Helldrake box? That's a new one...

      Delete
  31. This is the worst response that a retailer could give: Actively rejecting their own customers based on a perceived injustice by their supplier.

    ReplyDelete
  32. could be a version of the Boston Tea Party?

    ReplyDelete
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  34. finally someone is sticking it too gw. I'm not a fan of banning a book from a store, but they can simply refuse to stock gw products. I think that the exchange program of gw stuff for other game systems is a great idea.

    ReplyDelete
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  36. Surely when new codices drop this book will eventually be useless. It's clearly a stop gap limited run. It's not something people are queuing down the street for. Retailers are hardly missing out here. Seems much ado about nothing IMO

    ReplyDelete
  37. Surely when new codices drop this book will eventually be useless. It's clearly a stop gap limited run. It's not something people are queuing down the street for. Retailers are hardly missing out here. Seems much ado about nothing IMO

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Exactly, none of the 6ed flyers are in there as far as I know, and it is clearly just there to patch the hole in the wall from when the first flyers crashed through the wall.

      Delete
  38. Glad to see I am not the only one that see the store owners response as silly.

    If you hate GW so Fing much, why not just stop stocking it? Oh, what's that? It's a huge part of your overall income? And discontinuing GW products altogether would be worse for you?

    Sure Warmachine might be an awesome game, but don't force it on people.
    I would stop buying from any store that tried to pull this on me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You have never run a game store, have you? I volunteered at my friend's store 12 years ago as a liaison to GW. They did very little to encourage us to carry their product and most everything else in the store outsold it, including dvd rentals, snacks, and of course Magic.

      Don't kid yourself, most game stores wouldn't lose much without Warhammer and 40k.

      Delete
    2. Thank you. Ive spoken to the owners of 4 different hobby stores in my area- 2 are now extinct- and they all spoke on how difficult it was to make money with GW products. 3 of them wanted me to try another game they had like Flames of war.
      But sadly I love the warhammer 40k fluff and models so much....

      Delete
  39. If an Aussie retailer does that trade in thing i'll happily jump ship to Hordes

    ReplyDelete
  40. happy to report that this thread has clued me into the existence of Warmachine. I'm a big steampunk fan. Ordered a couple of models online today.

    ReplyDelete
  41. It's very disappointing to see grown up owners of supposedly serious retail business acting like children. This sort of thing is why we can't ever be taken seriously as business people.

    If they can calm their nerd-rage for a moment and actually think, it's easy to guess why GW decided to make this release Direct-Only. These hardcover, glossy, high-def books that have been bringing out have turned out to be massively expensive to make and have not sold in enough quantities to justify the increased cost. In the case of 'Death From the Skies' their projected sales fell short of the return it needed to make. *But* instead of just killing the project they decided to let it go ahead, but with a tiny print run that would be guaranteed to sell out, and therefore limited to their web store. In order to stock their own stores they would have had to print a larger run, and that would have lost money. And if their own stores aren't going to stock it, it goes without saying that independent retailers are out as well.

    I don't necessarily agree with their decision, and I think it's probably the culmination of a series of bad decisions (they should have just killed the project). But it is a decision that makes sense in context. It isn't a 'money grab', or a 'slap in your face', or 'just to be dicks'. You're an adult running your own business for heaven's sake, grow up.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. seems the most likely explination to me

      Delete
  42. Kristen- so your experience at one store speaks on the behalf of all FLGS? PLEASE. My FLGS makes their income from both magic and GW (they depend on GW sales to make a profit). But I sure as hell wouldn't make a sweeping statement that GW is either insignificant or significant to all FLGS.

    Even the statement that three stores went under is meaningless. Four stores out of the entire USA is enough to claim that GW is an insignificant sales portion of FGS?

    You don't have the facts- a handful if stores is crap for knowledge.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1. My name is KRISKEN. I can understand it was difficult to see the name properly with all the excitement you seem to be experiencing, so I'll let it slide. ;)

      2. You only have to look at GW's own stores to see how difficult it is for a FLGS to make a significant income. When a large number (the Milwaukee store included) were told they could only have one employee working at a time and a large cut in hours, that was a big indicator on how a store dedicated to the product is doing. It wasn't just one or two stores, but across the U.S.

      I agree, a handful of stores is crap for knowledge. However, you shouldn't assume everyone is working in that vacuum of knowledge. Maybe look up a few of your own facts?

      Delete
  43. My "F"LGS also decided to pull this crap. Needless to say, I won't be frequenting them anymore. Throwing a hissy fit because GW doesn't let you stock a rulebook is beyond ridiculous. There are dozens of direct-only models, rules, and the entire FW range which already follows this rule. If you "want to take a stand" and make GW listen, stop carrying GW products. That's a stance I can respect. Saying "Oh, you won't give us your ball? Well, I'm taking mine and going home!" only screws over customers and gamers. While I agree that GW is an awful company, these stunts put stores that do this firmly in the same category as GW: "I'm willing to screw my customers over in the hopes of making money".

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hello There.

    I didn't read all comments, but I've read the Post.


    The first thing that come to my Mind is: "Those independant store are STUPID"


    The RuleBook "Death From The Skies" is just an awesome Book. I actually don't bought it, but I'll buy it as Faster as Possible.

    I'm Black Templar Player, which mean my Codex is old (2004) and I don't have access to a lot of new content available for other SpaceMarines armies.

    Without the Book "Death From The Skies", I have to wait since the new Black Templar Codex release.(Arround middle of 2014 as I saw)
    No Flyers + No Anti-Flyers Defences = ALLIES TOTALY NECESSARY against Ennemy with Flyers.

    With the Book, that mean I can have Flyers in waiting of the new Black Templar Codex.

    As Player, this Book is just nice.

    I can't understand the point of view of thoses independant store who are banning the Book from their Store and from their EVENT too.


    When I saw, few weeks ago, that a Book, which will allow Flyers for my Black Templars, will be Released, I was like a Kid at Christmas seeing Big Gifts under the Christmas Tree.

    ReplyDelete
  45. You managed to copy/paste from my blog without providing any mention of it or credit for the article. You've also incorrectly attributed a compilation of Pat Fuge's words, my own, and Gary Ray's as Pat Fuge's open letter.

    -Robert Pace
    http://onlyterriblethings.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. None of the information I posted came directly from your blog. As often happens the information was sent in here without a link to your site, and additional research did not turn up where it came from.

      I appreciate the information though, and have added your name to the articles credits above.

      Delete
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