While a lot of Daemons are being discussed, its time for a brief break, as we get to the bottom of exactly what is going on over at Forgeworld regarding a move to going more mainstream. This is very detailed, and should answer most of the questions we have had over the last 6 months or so on the issue.


There are many people that would like to see Forgeworld go more maintstream, and be more accepted in the standard 40k game. While there are a few rules issues with it, Forgeworld models have in general become more balanced to use in games, despite the consistent attitude that they are not among long time gamers that have been around for a decade or more when rules were much different.

A huge thanks goes out to our source, for giving us this information and allowing it to be posted.


viaAnonymous Source (from the Faeit 212 inbox)
Forgeworld has recently begun experimenting with some new casting methods. The tartarus terminators for instance were originally injection molded. 

Due to quality, however Forgeworld returned to it's normal production methods shortly there after. 

The clam shells are identical to the new GW blisters, but thats just because of a change in supply chain for packaging. 

At this time there is zero intention to stick Forgeworld in retail stores. 

Unlike GW, Forgeworld actually maintains a surprisingly low shelf stock of their miniatures. While very few are cast to order, Forgeworld maintains a weekly schedule for production based on the previous week's sales. 

Forgeworld resin cannot be melted and reused so any unsold product is garbage.

As such, for Forgeworld to put even just 1 package of only their popular kits in every store it would still be 100x or more than their current inventory.

Also, conversations on this topic in the past have concluded that Forgeworld packaging would need to be improved to match the GW standard, which means photographers, graphic artists and more importantly: costs. 

Furthermore, while this is in part due to the nature of how Forgeworld can currently be acquired, most purchases are large. Entire armies, etc. Thus, the sales pattern does not fit the retail environment. Admittedly this would change somewhat as there are for certain people who would buy just 1 kit if it were in store who currently buy nothing due to shipping costs and time. 

Lastly, in terms of new (currently untapped) revenue it would not generate much if any. Predictions show that it would just redirect some funds from GW plastic to FW resin in some situations. 

That isn't to say that GW isn't acutely aware of the demand for Forgeworld. Especially now with the Heresy being fleshed out. 

There is a strong push for Forgeworld to be available in stores as Direct Order, without shipping or duty fees and presumably taking a fraction of the time. 

What is holding that back is just the legal limitations. Someone has to pay the duty, and it is not predictable or consistent enough to factor into the cost of the models. 

To get around that, the miniatures would have to be produced in the same country they're being sold in, or a neighboring nation with a free trade agreement. 

Sadly though, when it comes to north America, if something is made in the USA or Canada, you can't also import it (as the same company). Meaning if Forgeworld set up shop in Tennessee it would be the only place to get Forgeworld in north America. 

Currently there just isn't enough demand in either America or Europe to split the supply like that. 

Forgeworld is currently in a sweet spot where supply barely meets demand. Until that changes, the model won't. 

64 Comments:

  1. That's a well formulated, easy to understand response. Thank you for posting that.

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    1. we are lucky today, often I get information like this, but its given to me as "not for posting online". its because of jobs at stake or because of nerdrages that would occur, or just because of how sensitive the info is.

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  2. Those of us lucky enough to be able to visit Warhammer World where they cast up all the FW items can stroll into the in-house shop and any FW items that they don't have they will cast up to order, sometimes on the same day, more often to dispatch via post a day or two later at not additional cost. A lot of their stuff does seem to be cast up to order.

    The above source makes perfect sense.

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    1. Wow never knew that. Do the they let you watch the casting process if on same day?

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    2. So jealous. Not an option over here, obviously.

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    3. @ Nurgle Burgers, sadly no but they used to a long time ago with the GW ones. I remember watching my friends custodian getting cast.

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    4. Dude, next time you're up there, can you ask them from me why they don't have TL-PR or TL-FB piranhas for sale when they have the rules?

      And then... well, I'm sure you can guess what I'd like you to do to them ;-)

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    5. That would be awesome. Oh well there is always Bugmans bar. I really should go, I am only 40 miles or so away from it.

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    6. Though considering the cost of models.. not looking forward to seeing how much a pint is. lol

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    7. @Lars Panzerbjorn

      Isn't that what the TX-42 Piranha is?
      If you didn't know, the kits actually come with all the weapon options (including plasmas, fusion and Missile pods ect) as the resin spure they come on is the same as the FW crisis suit kits.

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    8. @Felix;

      They do? It's a shame it doesn't say that on their site and only shows pictures of the TL-Rail Rifle.

      Hmmm, I might send them a message about it then.

      Thanks.

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  3. The only thing I want is the conversion rates between the US dollar and the British Pound Stirling to not be so terrible. That's the biggest problem here state side, and sadly is more of our crap economies fault so Forgeworld couldn't help that.

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    1. Well my American friend, lucky for you our government is doing everything it can to cripple our economy so give it time :s

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    2. Not just the American Government. Also Big Industries in American and the Banks. FUBARed Front, Back and Sideways...according to the news...

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  4. 1) Balanced? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA! Oh, I needed a good laugh of the day. Have we not seen or read about all the crap people do and abuse with Forge World at events? Can we say Adepticon Gladiator? I know in the past one friend got screwed by the Spore Mines at one event before they edited them to fix the abuse and editions changed.

    2) The items in the books are not balanced, pointed correctly or play tested very well. They belong in friendly games and Apoc gaming, not mainstream gaming. If they are intended to belong to such they would be massed produced, on the shelf next to other products at retailers that are easy to access by the public instead of going online or visiting a GW store to place a FW order.

    3) GW is clearly making another money honey grab and finding a new way to flip off the retailers again. If they cared they would allow retailers to order FW into their stores and sell it (so the retailer can stay in buisness). It's going to suck guys when you keep spending your money online and the only spot you can play at is your garage or some organized event that isn't at a game store as they will be gone or won't carry the product (thus supporting events!).

    Boarding meeting: Hey! People just love to piss their money away on this stuff! Let's encourage it more! Who cares if it spoils the game and screws the balance over! Our stockholders are happy!

    FW is great stuff, but really should only modify what is current in a codex or be a collector only like it has always has been. People got it because they wanted it, not because they needed it to keep up with the Jones Family.

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    1. It is true that Forgeworld has a much smaller playtesting group. And of course mistakes are taken advantage of quickly by our community.

      However, all of that happens with the standard GW products as well. When looking at what we are dealing with on many of the units from standard codices and faqs, I still find forgeworld rules to be at very comparable. Its nothing like the old days.

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    2. You are right that standard GW products have some of the same issues when it comes to mistakes with rules. The problem is do you really want to open the door wider to make even more problems instead of less?

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    3. Normal 40K is unbalanced, but FW is even more unbalanced. But FW have more interesting and cooler rules than normal game.

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    4. "2) The items in the books are not balanced, pointed correctly or play tested very well. They belong in friendly games and Apoc gaming, not mainstream gaming."

      Much the same could be said about the GK & Necron codexes written by Matt Ward, so your point is what?

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    5. Balanced? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA! Oh, I needed a good laugh of the day. Have we not seen or read about all the crap people do and abuse with *Grey Knights, Necrons, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves* at events?

      There, fixed it for you.

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    6. @Dadoys: To the point it is changing the game from what we started with?

      @Da Masta Cheef: and as I said, why open the door wider for more problems instead of fixing them? If you are on a boat that is taking on water would you make the hole bigger to take on more water?

      Shrike: Yes, For the most part those are the guilty books, some others like Nids also, all with specific builds. FW just opens a larger rift.

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    7. What current units are you referring to?

      FW are, in my experience, currently mostly a bit overcosted.

      I would love to hear some examples of their models that you currently feel are OP.

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    8. styx: adding forgeworld isn't really like making the hole bigger, its more like blocking it up.

      including forgeworld in games gives the weaker armies options they can use against the broken armies.

      i'd also like to add that i have actually found forgeworld to be more balanced than standars 40k. in particular, look at the eldar corsairs, better than eldar, but worse than GKs and Guard.

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    9. The only stuff I have a real issue with balance wise is alot of the thing in the aeronautica book. The whole thing was rushed out and badly done.
      The scoring artillery pieces with interceptor are one of the main offenders along with the other interceptor units.

      There is a reason that armies can normally only field a single fortification with interceptor, its a very powerful and not very fun rule.

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    10. @Lars just search the internet, what is silly in list combos and such are out there...can't miss them.

      @Makreig Most of the FW isn't geared to the weaker armies sadly. When was the last Necron, Tau, Eldar, Ork or Dark Eldar item added? Take a good look at what areas have the strongest product line. I think that undermines that line of thinking, which isn't bad but not factual. Plus for everything that they do get, there is 2-3 items that counters the advantage.

      @WisdomLS yea, the aeronautica stuff is the worst of the worst. I just flipping through it and was very disappointed by it.

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    11. @Styx;
      So, in other words, you don't actually know. Maybe if you had your own opinions instead of just parroting other people you could add some value to this topic.

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    12. Not at all Lars, just saves me time typing. Besides would it really change your mind? I doubt it, more than likely you have your mind made up. If you care, research it, if not move on with your games and have fun by all means if that is what you enjoy.

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    13. Styx;

      You don't seem to understand how this ting works.
      You make a crazy claim, I then ask for proof.
      You either provide it, or you don't.

      If you don't then move on while assuming that your claim was wrong.
      the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

      Example, if I claim there is a chocolate teapot orbiting the sun at the exact opposite side to earth, is the burden of proof on me or on you?

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    14. I do understand how this thing works.
      It is not a crazy claim. Proof is what you make it, I can give examples all day and you can look them up on the internet till you die. The truth is you have your mind made up, nothing will change it. There is no burden of proof on opinion. What you are asking someone to write a book when the book is already out there in print. I'm sorry if you are not able to do the research to be informed, but you already feel you are right and thus informed. A moot point discussing this someone like you as you have your mind made up.

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    15. So, what you're saying is that you made a claim, you now can't find anything to back it up, and you don't want to admit it.

      Fine.

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    16. Umm... yeah. When I get people to play against my ForgeWorld Tau stuff, and even my Imperial Guard list from ForgeWorld that uses ForgeWorld models, and can even throw out Russes as HQs, Elites, and Troops, people actually frequently comment that my armies actually seemed very VERY balanced, fair, and refreshing as that makes them not cookie-cutter lists.

      I've even converted a couple of people who were emphatically "NO FORGEWORLD NEVER!!!!" to "You know, that's not too bad."

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    17. I second Lars styx is an idiot repeating the big internet peoples opinion with no evidence whatsoever

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  5. Brilliant response, really appreciate that being posted. Quite interesting to read the logistics and such behind things too. Thanks for posting this.

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  6. This totally makes sense. Damn that Catch-22, its the worst one.

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    1. Also, I really wish some of the FW characters would migrate over to 40k. There are named characters for a ton of chapters in the Badab War books, allowing you to field a Raptors or Carcharadon army with their own chapter tactics, and its really awesome. Actually, it makes me miss the old chapter tactics.

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  7. I really appreciate FW for filling in the gaps for armies such as Tau and Eldar. I'm not real sympathetic with Space Marine players complaints. Your codex is not 6-7 years old, mate.

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    1. If it is true, Tau and Eldar will get their love soon.

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  8. I would imagine that the way FW is going to go "mainstream" is like it has been going the past few years: the most popular kits will be made in plastic by GW in order to allow FW to pursue new niche products (and also to act as GW's market research unit, testing with actual products which of them would be good enough sellers to be remade in plastic). Eg: Valkyrie, BEIIIIINNNNBLEEEEHHHHDDDDEEEEE, Shadowsword, Leman Russ Vanquisher/Exterminator/Executioner, Sentinel with missile launcher, Land Raider Redeemer, Fighta-Bomma, Stompa.

    So enough of Horus Heresy or DKoK sales will eventually turn (at least some of) them into plastic. Also, if Apocalypse Redux is indeed coming in the summer, expect a couple more superheavies to make the transition as well in order to make a nice tie-in (and make people forget that GW will inevitably jack up the prices of all existing superheavys at the same time).

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  9. I just wish they would actually make models for the units they make rules for.

    As a Tau player, I look longingly at some of the suits/vehicles they have rules but no models for...

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    1. That's why my baggage comes home to Oz from the Philippines full of mecha kits. Multi coloured plastic suit kits, beautifully moulded, fit together perfectly, for $8 per kit. Great source of conversion parts for $55 XV8 kits.

      Thanks for posting this elegant and insightful view into FW. It all makes so much sense.

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    2. May I ask what options we Tau don't have represented in models?

      SO far as I have seen, the only option we don't have a model for are the Pulse Submunition Rifles for the XV9 Suits.

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    3. Ooohhh, that sounds interesting...

      Any chance you could drop me a line with details? :-D

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    4. Felix;

      The XV-9 you mention is the one that pains me the most. When I asked them they told me to just buy two of the special character which had *one* -_-

      The others are the Piranha-TX42 variants, but since you said further up that it does come with all the weapon options, I'll contact them to find out.

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  10. There is only one way to have Forgeworld go mainstream and that is for GW to just say it.
    Clam shell packaging, production in the US, and sales from your local Jiffy-Mart will not shut up certain people that don't want to see Forgeworld. Only the words in a FAQ on their website in simple words that say "Forgeworld rules are allowed in 40k games."
    They have not said those words, that certain types people demand, so it becomes uncomfortable and not fun for the rest of us.

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  11. Anyone complaining "OMG IMBA IMBA IMBA" at the sight of even one FW unit, or whining "OMG TOTALLY RANDUM LAME XIITMODE", has clearly never played RT/2ed and thus has never known the FUN! wargear that was the Virus Grenade, being in the main rulebook (RT) or the official wargear book (2ed) of all things.

    For those with less years than us living ancestors, this was a thrown grenade with what would nowadays be Large Blast. EVERYTHING caught in the blast zone that was not fully enclosed (at the time, pretty much only SPESS MAHREENS, Aspect Warriors, non-open topped vehicles, and by way of exception, Tyranids - IG Stormtrooper suit or Squat Exo-Armour offering no protection) simply died/vehicle got destroyed on a roll of 3+ (no saves allowed, in modern context EW, iron halo, etc. would not help). But wait, it gets better. For EVERY model that was killed in the initial blast, a new D6" radius blast zone was drawn, in which everyone was infected and killed on a 4+. For EVERY model killed through the virus spreading, a new D6" radius blast zone... and so on, until either there were no more deaths or all non-protected models were killed. Of course, a single grenade was not always enough to wipe out an entire army, but fortunately, a character could be kitted out with up to three of these babies... wait, still not enough, after all, they were hugely expensive at 50 points apiece and this would actually require you to get within throwing distance? Fear not, among the 18 randomly drawn no-cost Stratgey Cards (one card per 1000 points, rounding up) there was "Virus Outbreak", being the equivalent of a Virus Grenade with unlimited range and no LOS requirement...

    So please forgive me if the current trend of whining about "imbalanced" FW units or "too much randomness" in the latest codex feels quite silly and childish.

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    1. I am one of those that thinks GW should be apart from the mainstream and I started with 2nd. I have known fun and some stuff in the game that was just ******* stupid. I also hated it when people brought really crazy (yet legal) things or lists like Virus Grenades, All Space Wolf Terminators with Cyclones and Assault cannons. Atone point at the store I played at people was buying up Armorcast (pre-FW) like crazy to bring it into the campaign because it was allowed. Titans was a laugh for a quick moment and then not fun when the Phantom came along squashing Warhounds and any other units flat without effort. It was a good laugh and that was about all. During that campaign the store owner gave me some store credit because I was bulldozed by that Space Wolf list above, I had a good army, good tactics but you can't beat a game that is designed to overpower someone else in one ups. I took it like a sport and everyone afterwards was just floored the guy showed up with something that silly.

      Adding FW is like trying to one up something instead of just appreciating what you have. Don't get me wrong, it's fun if you are playing for giggles with a buddy or Apoc gaming where you expect it. Now with GTs and some LGS events allowing it is just a bit much, simply it does not belong there.

      I don't consider what I say whining any more than what you just posted some could say you are whining because people are against this idea and not jumping on the bandwagon. It is a matter of opinion and perspective. Your fun is not my fun and the other way around. People will not know something is wrong unless people speak up, trying to brush something under the rug or say someone is whining is just trying to put something down instead of discussing it like an adult.

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    2. "People will not know something is wrong unless people speak up."
      Ironically, I'm speaking up against you complaining about FW. You are categorising FW as wrong, and quite simply, I won't accept that. I have yet to see a more broken FW list than the stuff that comes out of regular codices, so I just don't see that argument.
      Also, you are using an example of a horrendously abused REGULAR 40k Codex army list, to show why FW is bad. Wait, what? That seems to defeat your point. Regular 40k is abusable. You are simply stating that FW is like the worst parts of 40k and telling me that "it does not belong in LGS or GTs".
      I've seen some very good arguments for not allowing FW, but this is one of the worst.

      "trying to put something down" - saying that FW is only good for giggles with a friend or an apocalypse game certainly epitomises that quotation.

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    3. The very reason I brought up the virus grenade example was to illustrate that GW itself can create horribly game-breaking items even without resorting to expansions, and that even the most broken FW units are a far cry from that if you put them into perspective.

      Ever since FW split up their units into "40K approved" and "Apocalypse", you would be hard pressed to find a single OP or undercosted unit among the "40K approved". Most are in fact horribly overpriced (in points, too) and underpowered.

      And saying that "Apocalypse" units are not always perfectly balanced (be they Armorcast or FW Titans) is stating the obvious. GW themselves explicitly say in the Apocalypse rulebook that the aim of Apocalypse is not to have a competitive balanced tournament environment, but to turn everything up to 11 and beyond and have fun (or FUN!) with all sorts of craziness.

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    4. There is a difference between stating a fact and complaining. The fact is it does not belong in mainstream gaming like GTs and LGS events, that is the bottom line. If GW had intended for this to ever be mainstream they would have shut down FW and merged the companies.

      If you are talking about the Space Wolves in 2nd edition part, I guess you missed the part about the Armorcast in the campaign and just focused on what you wanted to see. Adding FW to a system of already has issues to the game would just throw gasoline on the fire.

      I have also said that retailers don't sell FW, nor it is easy to purchase other than going to GW stores or online orders. Guess you may have missed that part earlier. For a GT it won't hurt anything, for a LGS it hurts them as they are not selling the product. If GW put FW on the shelf, made it legal for games and merged companies as I said before then yea it would be mainstream cannon use it at will in any game.

      There are several other good arguments out there, but I think you could care less if they are good or not. It is clear you have your opinion and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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    5. I Agree with you shrike, Styx seems to be speaking from a lack of direct experience.

      "I know in the past one friend got screwed by the Spore Mines at one event before they edited them to fix the abuse and editions changed"

      "@Lars just search the internet, what is silly in list combos and such are out there...can't miss them."

      So one friend got screwed in the past and than you reference crazy net list. I for one haven't seen crazy FW net list. However, I have seen crazy GW net list that are far more abusive

      I feel styx isn't consider the 40k approved units. Let's consider the Caestus assalut ram. It's a good flyer but not really OP and might be a little over costed. I'd say the storm raven is better in almost any situation to the Ram.

      If you search the internet for rules your going to find outdated rule sets but the new Apocalypse book included many revamped 40k approved rules that are well balanced.

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    6. My lgs has allowed forgeworld for years and the only really dumb thing that's happened is intercept spam out of areonautica. And THAT was just a mass reaction to an IG list with 12 damn fliers.

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    7. I think Natfka explains in his post why they cannot merge the companies. They are too different from a purely manufacturing standpoint. Neither branch of the company can emulate the other, both in quality of sculpts and quantity of production.
      The rules on the other hand, are designed to be used together. The most OP unit in the whole of FW is the Interceptor gun that IG can take instead of Heavy Weapons Teams, and that's head and shoulders above the rest. What would it do in 40k? Reduce flyer spam, considering how many armies can ally with guard.
      I still don't get your point that they would have to merge companies to be legal. That doesn't make any sense.

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    8. GW could merge if they wanted to, I saw what Natfka posted and to a point it is reasonable but if they want everything together they should merge. FW was started to add something to the collectors and the people that wanted bigger or crazier games. It wasn't intended for mainstream, if I recall, I think the books even said you should ask for your opponents permission before using (at work, but I do think the older books say this).

      GW's biggest issue with rules is like many other companies, when they have different people write books and don't talk to one another or consider what they write has X impact on the game. Factor in other people now doing FW books adds to that.


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    9. They used to be a collector's range. Not any more. Now they are part of standard "official" 40k, as shown by the removal of the "ask opponent's permission" in the introduction.
      And about the merging. Yeah. Do you realise how differently they function? GW have a rigid release schedule, FW have one of the most fluid ones I've seen. The Necron Tomb Stalker was made by one of the studio members during his lunch breaks, and they liked it so much they wrote some balanced rules for it, and released it a few weeks later. GW don't work like that. Timetables must be adhered to, or there will be consequences.

      "It wasn't intended for mainstream" - GW maintains that 40k wasn't, and still isn't intended for competitive play.

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    10. @Styx;
      "The fact is it does not belong in mainstream gaming like GTs and LGS events, that is the bottom line."

      You really should try to figure out the difference between your personal opinion.

      I could, and in fact would, equally say that FW belongs on the table top in GW stores, independent stores and in tournaments.
      And the people who whine about them being OP without actually having read their rules or having played against them should really try to get some real information before giving others the benefit of their opinion.

      FW models and rules allow certain armies to get flyers and AA weaponry. Tau for example are quite simply screwed without FW.
      Nothing that can take down flyers, and no flyers of our own.
      But let me guess, you don't play Tau, so what do you care...

      Eldar Corsair list is balanced and fun to play against.

      Forge World levels the playing field and broadens the meta. Suddenly, there are more options you have to guard against, and I have found that the average all-comers lists are suddenly the ones I have a harder time spanking...

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    11. Gah, that first comment should have ended with "and things that are facts".

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    12. Lars there are others that have the same opinion as me and to be honest your opinion is yours and mine is mine so I guess you could say both of ours are personal opinions.

      The largest issue I have is the LGS makes nothing off FW at all, except maybe some glue and paint sales. All the money goes into GW's coffers and not your LGS retailers. Fine if GTs want to allow it that is their call.

      And by the way, yea I have played against them and read the books. Still have the same opinion. Sorry, I am not some 13 year old screaming COOL! I am a bit more of a realistic player. So maybe you should not assume things either.

      Let's see Eldar and Tau are the only two armies without a flyer. Tau are getting a book next from the rumormill and I am sure they will get one and the same for the Eldar that is also on the list.

      You can always ally with someone to get a flyer if they are important to you. I think people put too much stress into the flyer and is perhaps one of the worst developed parts of 6th. I think it shows in the latest FAQ where GW is trying to power down flyers by stat changes (Valk/Vendetta, among other things).

      Wait? ARe you telling me that Tau, Eldar, Orks and Nids can't get AA? Really? Have you read you core rules? Funny there is defense guns for everyone! Play nids? Guess what build a biological looking gun. That is part of the creative side of the hobby. Saying that FW is a good reason for races to get AA is weak sauce there. I may could give it ground for a flyer, but again allies fixes that and in less than a year it will be a moot point so who cares?

      Oh, I do own Tau, I do play with Tau. I have used them both as primary and allies. So, who is assuming now?

      FW does not level the field, it puts a bunch of pretty models on the table. It also drags the game in speed. Not everyone owns the books or has read them, so now in the middle of a tournament game, you have to stop progressive play to let some other player read the rules so they understand what they are up against. Sounds fun eh?



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    13. "Not everyone owns the books or has read them."
      This is quite possibly the worst reason you could give for disallowing FW. It implies that if you go to tournaments, you should know EVERYTHING in EVERY CODEX. Why? On average, most people are very familiar with 1-4 codices, know a fair bit about 5-9, but don't really know anything about the others, either due to the local meta not using them very often, or no interest in them. Claiming that people would spend time at tournaments looking up rules for FW is silly, because they do it anyway for normal codices.
      Ah yes, allies and fortifications, the great levellers. *facepalm* this sort of crap stagnates the meta. Eldar shouldn't have flyers yet because they have allies. So your well-built, beautiful Eldar army has to take allies rather than continuing to be a pure Eldar army with some excellent FW flyers? Also, less than a year it will be a moot point so who cares? Eldar players probably do. If they can get their own flyers sooner rather than later, I suspect quite a few will be happy.
      BTW, you do know FW came up with the idea of 40k flyers? Just saying...

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    14. Styx;
      A) You presented your opinion as facts, not me. Don't try to pretend now that you didn't.

      B) What if someone buys part of their army from somewhere else? Are they then not allowed to bring those?
      Please tell me you can see how utterly stupid that is.
      And if the store owner is that much of a tyrant, then you shouldn't be buying anything there at all.

      C) If you have read the books and played against them, then I ask you, yet again, what is it that is so horrifically OP? I don't think there is anything that is 40k approved' that I would be unhappy to play against.
      I have made a number of assumptions based on what you have written so far.

      D) It doesn't really matter what may or may not be coming down the line. 6th ed is here now, and we are without flyers and/or AA unless we ally it in. And yes, that ADL is imperial, so I count that as an ally until I can get one for Tau. Otherwise I might well put a flight stem on a rhino and call it a devilfish.

      So who cares? The players who are playing now, and who might just have packed it in in favour of another system in a year's time...

      E) Not everyone having the books is probably the outright dumbest and least worthwhile reason you have so far managed to come up with.
      Unless you have all the codices, are you seriously suggesting that you would refuse to play against someone who is using a codex you don't have? Presumably you pre-order so you can have all of them on release day.
      Please tell me you can see how stupid an excuse this is so we can move on?

      Delete
    15. Shrike, a better point on the books is this. I was discussing this last night with a friend. You are at an event, they put FW out, you don't have the book. At this point you as a good player should ask to see the book and take a moment to understand the rules, otherwise you are at the mercy of the other player (in hopes they are playing it correctly and not cheating or making an honest mistake) in any case, everyone has the core rules, most people are familiar with all the codex books and concepts even if they don't own them. FW isn't that common in the pool of gaming knowledge, you just can't walk over to a shelf at a LGS or hope the guy playing around you may have a copy of that book to borrow for a moment if you wanted to look something up. The situation above slows down game time at an event as a player now has to understand what they are up against to be able to react to it in the game.

      The point about Eldar and flyers is within a year they will get their own entry. Now you pay how much for all that FW stuff to get a cheaper codex option perhaps? May not even have the weapons on it you need. Now you paid a great deal of money on resin that is pretty again and not as useful. The point is within a year, all armies should have a flyer (except Space Wolves).

      Again your points are a matter of perspective. In a year the whole arguement of flyers will be a moot point as a balancing agent for FW.

      Lars:
      B) If they do buy an army, it could count as something in the codex or you could use it in friendly games. Again from my side of the fence it does not belong there. I own some FW and still feel if it isn't reflected in the codex it does not belong.

      C) Items that are powerful. The Chaos Decimaitor for one. I could write a page comparing it against a Defiler, Mauler, etc...it is by far a superior unit for the point cost difference (same as a Defiler I may add)even with a few high point upgrades the guy is a bargin and if used right. The Tyranid Spore Mines (the large blast ones that ignore cover, kill marines). The new 6th rules take a look at them and read the rules related in the book. Very abusive potential.

      E) No but I am familiar with the regular line of books of codexes, FW not so much and nor is the average player. See the comment above.

      Not all of FW is broken, I want to be clear but there is some stuff that just opens the door further abuse.

      Delete
    16. Wow, just wow.

      This is a brick wall I see little point in continuing beating my head against.

      Delete
  12. Yes this arguement is just going around in circles and I am getting very dizzy

    ReplyDelete
  13. Forgeworld rules and models are not part of the basic Warhammer 40k game.
    Are they referred to within the GW codexes?
    Are they listed in the FOC charts in the GW codexes?

    The answer is no, so they aren't part of standard 40k.

    Are they compatible with Warhammer 40k? Yes
    Are they balanced and appropriately costed? Some yes, some no.
    Would incorporation of the units have a significant impact on the game? Yes

    Does Forgeworld have the authority to declare whether their '40k Approved' units are part of GW codex armies? No, that is reserved for GW.

    Does GW want Forgeworld '40k Approved' units to be considered part of standard 40k codex army lists?
    No-one really knows since GW never answers that directly.

    The level of vitriol that the subject generates is pretty extreme. In the main, FW units aren't too unbalancing, so having them appear is not the end of the world. However, they aren't an official part of the game, so there is also nothing wrong in saying that they are not permitted in a tournament/league/whatever.
    Waving a non-GW rulebook at me and declaring that that book says I have to allow you to use certain units is not a compelling argument.

    ReplyDelete
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