Lets get down to it, these units have changed drastically. You can call it the nerf bat or you can just say that they are brought back to reality, but the screamer/ flamer spam is long gone. Lets take a look at these units, and their changes.


Screamers. (jetbike unit)
At first glance these guys stayed the same with a very similar stat line. Now being a Daemon of Tzeentch (special rule), screamers get to re-roll all failed saves of 1. This gives them a much better saving throw than they had before, and it means that when they are turbo boosting, they will be getting a 3+ save.

After this is where there are subtle changes that alters the screamers that we loved to see or hated to face. The biggest is Lamprey's Bite

As it stands now in order to use Lamprey's Bite, you must sacrifice all your attacks, in order to use this ability. Its still S5 AP2 with armourbane. So thats the biggest change, in that now, for the same point cost, you only get one Lamprey's Bite.

Slashing Attacks are still the same as well, as well as squad size.

Flamers (jump infantry)
Another Tzeentch unit, they get the same bonus to saves that Screamers get. One again point costs are the same, but nerf bat came in the form of Warpflame. Before I get into that though, the Pyrocaster can take up to 20pts in Daemonic Rewards in any combination. Lessers at 10pts each, and Greater Rewards for 20pts. (As I get more into the codex we can take a closer look at these)

Warpflame got hit hard, and it goes like this. S4 AP4 Template, warpflame. Warpflame is now checked for at the end of any phase in which one or more unsaved wounds occured. Any unit that that has suffered one, now must make a toughness test, and if failed suffers D3 wounds with no armour or cover saves allowed.

Here is the tricky part. If the test is passed, all models in that unit gain feel no pain 6+ for the rest of the game. If they already have it, they gain a +1 to all no feel pain rolls the rest of the game.................

Wow, I think flamers just might make things easier on some armies.


There you have it.... While I think personally that they are brought back a little more into line with what they should have been (minus the feel no pain thing, which is a quirky rule), they have definitely gotten a 6th edition adjustment.

Later I will get into more of what you can expect (of course if you have been following along with the QnA and other info, you should already be on top of it)


86 Comments:

  1. I think it's also worth noting just how bad Tzeench troops got hit too. The poor pink horrors! A squad of 20 pink horrors on average gained 1 strength to the profile of the shot and gained 6" to the range of the weapon. But what did they loose, the volume of fire. A full squad of 20 has 4-24 shots MAX (sure it can be boosted to str 6), previously though you would have had 60 shots with the same group s4/ap4 @18". Lets also not forget this is a witchfire that can be denied.

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    1. No. In order to get the +1 strength a herald with the locus must be present in the unit. This herald has access to the divination powers, so can take the primaris to reroll failed hit tests. Average 4d6 assualt = 14 shots. 7 hots, rerolling 7...lets say 3 hit. That's 10 St6 hits, prob wounding what - 9?

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    2. Sure. I was looking at pure group w/out an IC joined. But yea if you did boost the str by +1 with a loci, and assuming you go for prescience out of divination (may have to buy a second ML on the herald) you would get the re-rolls. But it't still quite a kick to what used to be fodder clearing weaponry to now being maybe a group intended on glancing AV10/11/12 things to death...

      Pure stat wise (vs guard no cover):
      Pre - 60 shots, 30 hits, 20 deaths.
      Post - (max) 24 shots, 12 hits, 10 deaths. Can be totally negated with a DtW Roll.
      Post (with herald) - (max) 24 shots, 18 hits (re-roll), 15 deaths. Can be totally negated with a DtW Roll.

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    3. It's not the number of wounds but the AP. Let's say you cause 10 wounds you'll see - on average, from space marines - 7 of those save.

      Why bother?

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    4. They're a lot cheaper than before, from 17 to 9, almost half price. I'm not complaining.

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    5. Sure, but they've reduced by a greater proportion than the points decrease. Apart from the maths, it's also worth noting they are the worst troops choice in the army. Would the them for mono tzeentch build, but that's it.

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  2. Flamers are better against everything that isn't a MEQ or a Monstrous Creature. Against anything T3 with a 4+ save (so Eldar, Tau, Nids, Orks, Cultists) is actually getting hit HARDER by flamers as they kill on 3+ not 4+ now

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    1. With nothing but the flame template now, and the specificiation to what can be killed in shooting, won't flamers only be able to kill what actually falls under the templates now?

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    2. I always interpreted that as everything within 8". But if not, you can just spread out the templates a bit.
      In fact, you could make that rule work for you. If want to make sure the special weapons or sarge gets killed, make sure they're under the templates and very few basic troops.

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  3. I think these changes helpped to balance these units out. With the Flamers the sheer amount of criss-crossing flamer templetes means your going to roll buckets of dice and still wipe my gaunts, genestealers, hormaguants, hell probably even warriors out in one go anyway. If you don't the =6 feel no pain with help but not much...

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    1. The feel no pain add on will be completely dependent on whether the effect stacks repeatedly. Use them against a monstrous creature with T6 and he might not even attack but take a couple rounds of fire and lose a couple wounds, but gain feel no pain 3+ if it already had it. Then go on a tanking and tearing spree. However, I agree, flamers are now far better against low toughness models. Too bad everyone where I am at play MEQs. But if I happen to go up against Tyranids, I know exactly what I am bringing.

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    2. I might have read this wrong. What you are saying is to flame one of your own MC's?! How is that even legal?

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    3. you cannot flame one of your own models it's the same as you cannot target a friendly model. although i can't help but think about a unit getting 1+ feel no pain lol

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    4. You can do it, but not "intentionally" IIRC. I could very well be wrong.
      I don't see why it wouldn't stack. First time it gives them FNP, then if they do have it, it's improved by 1. Pretty clear to me.

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  4. I for one applaud the move to balance the Tz daemons. In their previous state they were a bit OTT.

    I'm not sure whether I feel sorry for all the Flamer/Screamer net listers out there that based their whole army on these two units alone, or whether to chuckle.

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    1. While I'm sure it's saddening for them to have an army made invalid, it wasn't really sporting to have a list that spammed the best anti-tank and anti-infantry units :P

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    2. I chuckle, for I only suffer a little. I have 9 flamers total, and 11 screamers total. Could have been a lot worse. This actually makes sense points-wise, I always felt bad for my screamers killing twice their weight in terminators.

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    3. There's a difference between 'balancing an overpowered option' and 'nerfing it to hell now that everyone who was going to has bought some, to try and force them to buy something else'. This feels a lot more like the latter to me. And snaleking: good luck dealing with terminators at all now.

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  5. The whole warpflame ability is completely retarded.

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  6. To be honest, I'm now quite inclined to get a mono-tzeentch list. I always wanted one, and now I don't feel that they're too cheesy but require some tactics and strategy as well.

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    1. Can't say I agree. They're poor shooting, no mobility, no close no, no armour bashers/can openers.

      You can't out shoot your enemy, can't out manouvre him and you are weaker, more fragile and slower.

      I must be missing something with this codex. To assault well you need assault vehicles. To kill troops you need highish AP and it seems that nothing here has changed - we're still back with Soulgrinders or princes, but that's been nobbled as princes are now HQ.

      No here we have my imperial guard and my daemons. Guard have 6 leman russ tanks and chimera with flamers. Behind that a squadron of artillery (probably colossus or maybe a manticore). I've three Vendetta. There is nothing in this codex that I've seen that could beat that.

      I really, really hope there are some options and special rules in the actual book. Otherwise Daemons will go from fun but unfair to just no fun. I am not a power gamer, I just win a lot. Take away my options and I'm struggling from the outset.

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    2. Pegboard, your guard nerf is on its way I'am sure....humans will be knocked back down to lowly human levels soon enough. Then maybe this new codex will stand a chance against your guard XD.

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    3. Maybe I'm understanding things differently, but it sounds to me like you can get:
      1 greater demon
      4 heralds
      3 demon princes in heavy with same mark as GD

      That's a lot of characters/psychic powers.

      Weak? I don't think so

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    4. Pegboard, you're describing every Tau army: "You can't out shoot your enemy*, can't out manoeuvre him and you are weaker, more fragile and slower". Not seeing your point... Can't you rely on tactics instead?


      * If you check out a lot of the armies out there, Tau certainly can't outshoot them.

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    5. callist, if you don't mind losing all your games, I'd say go ahead with your tzeentch army. I am SO glad I decided not to get these for my daemons. How can any applaud this? GWS got tons of people to buy these units and then nerfed them so hard that they will never appear in any list that is even close to competitive.

      GWS should have nerfed them "a little bit" and brought them in line. Something like, a little more points, or maybe, one less attack. Instead, now they are less than a third as good as before with the same points cost. LOLOLOLOL.

      It's like if I bought a helldrake, and then in 3 months they made them cost 450 points with a codex update. You guys can't be serious applauding this. this was a cheep money grab, and a total dick move to a large number of players, of whom I am luckily not amongst

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    6. Seems to me that in order to get this codex to perform, you are going to have to move away from the mono lists. I for one plan on building my CD army with a mix of everything because it seems that each power fills a critical battlefield role. Khorne for high armour killing, Slaanesh for horde killing, Nurgle for objective camping, and Tzeentch for vehicle busting.

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    7. >>GWS got tons of people to buy these units and then nerfed them so hard that they will never appear in any list that is even close to competitive

      Heheheh. This is why I love the internet. Hysterical none sense like this really delivers the laughs. So entertaining.

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    8. tift- I don't blame you for being upset that your instant win button got nerfed, but at least you still have your Grey Knights and Necrons. /sarcasm

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    9. Michael, problem is not that an autowin button was removed. Problem is that it was created and then removed because they realized it was an autowin button. Seriously, couldn't they have realized before the WD update?

      Delete
  7. Wonder how the +1 invuln will interact with azrael's helm. If his guardblob gets flamed, do they go to a 3+? Or is it still gonna be 4+ because. Its a seperate save? If it is the 3+ and azrael leaves, does azeael keep the 3+? Can he confer it??

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    1. Hero derp, its feel no pain not invulnerable.

      Stool, the question stands but now with heralds.

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  8. I think Phil Kelly really doesn't like tzeentch. Thousand sons are overcosted, no divination for chaos marines with tzeentch, the tzeentch powers stink, and now it looks like every shooting attack my deamon allies use will potentially give +1 FNP to targets, which may stack! and the horrors will not only have to hit with BS3, but have to first pass a psy test, then allow a deny the witch just to shoot. I hope there is something in the rules to balance this better then were are seeing.

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    1. Well, there is this locus that adds +1 strength to your psychic powers(if the rumours are correct), add heralds own warpflame attack + prescience for rerrols and we're looking at 6d6 s6 shots + potentially 2d6 s4 hits for banner. Also don't forget all this high strength shooting can be aimed at vehicles and be quite devastating, not to mention with divination it doubles as mediocre AA.

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    2. 6d6 is always 6 just when you need more.

      Then it's S4. Then they get an armour save. If each attack is allowed Deny the Witch then that's more gone, then real armour saves... From all those attacks you might kill 1 marine.

      What a pointless exercise. When Necrons came out you saw tactical depth, choices, ways to play the army. These rumours seem... a muddled oddball that simply makes playing hard work.

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    3. Pegboard, your comments on the Necrons almost made me LOL. You are trashing the Daemon codex because not every unit in it is completely broken, undercosted, and OP??? Necrons don't have tactical depth, they have cheesy combos and game breaking special rules that are abused to the point of absurdity.

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    4. >>6d6 is always 6 just when you need more.

      Did, what kind of sad, and miserable existence have you lived where you expect something with a .002 % (that's 2 times out of 100,000) to occur just when you need more?

      It's an average of 2.43 wounds/volley against MEq,that includes deny and everything else. By comparison, 22 Bolters kill 2.44 MEq/volley at 24". But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

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  9. I don't mind the balancing of units, its the blatant profiteering I object to.


    Best units before the new codex and most recent plastic releases - Flamers, Screamers, Bloodcrushers. People have all gone out and brought the kits already so all have been hit with the nerf bat, the bloodcrushers have been hit with it multiple times, "A Brazen Brass Behemoth" T4, 6+/5++. I know its faster now but I like the unit to remotely resemble the fluff.

    The screamers and flamers were only released 6 months ago and were far too powerful so people brought loads of them and now they are passable at best.

    It just seems an obvious and pretty mean way of making money out of people, I should be used to it by now but somehow I'm not.

    Anyway I'm sure those new nurgle flys will be awesome..at least for a couple of months ;-)

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    1. The Bloodcrushers bother me because they copied so much from the fantasy book, why not copy the brass behemoth ability? It just gives them +2 armor, then they would at least be 4+/5++.

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    2. At 45 points they do seem over costed for such a low save, hopefully there'll be an Errata on release to fix that like dark angel veterans ;)

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    3. 45 points and no armour means they'll never see play. It's just silly to push everything remotely useful into heavy and HQ.

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    4. Agreed, I haven't seen them for fantasy yet though. So I may still have a use for them somewhere.

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  10. You have the codex there, anyone? How are the furies?

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    1. Furies are WS3 BS0 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld2 Sv-
      Jump Infantry
      Daemon, Daemonic Instability, Deep strike
      Fast Attack choice
      35pts for 5 model squad, 6pts each up to 20 thereafter.
      May be upgraded to Daemons of K/N/S for +2pts or Daemons of T for +1pt

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    2. Hahahahhaah LD 2. That's hilarious, grots have more guts.
      That's too funny...
      I would love them as troops. FA? ehhh, maybe that one mission... I won't be getting any.

      Delete
  11. It certainly feels like a very calculated, and perhaps cynical way for GW to get people to spend more money.

    They release new models and, in order to boost immediate sales, release completely over-powered temporary rules to accompany them. Then, once sales reach the projected maximum point, release more balanced rules for those models as part of a wider codex release.

    This feels like an alternative sales strategy than in 5th edition, where entire codexes were overpowered in a bid to boost sales of a newly released range. I'm glad they're making sure the permanent (codex) rules are balanced, but this early wave strategy with temporary overpowered rules still seems certainly quite cynical.

    I can't help but feel sorry for the people who started daemon armies based around flamers and screamers in the belief that the rules accompanying them in the initial stage were in fact the permanent rules.

    I would certainly think twice before jumping on the band wagon when this happens again. For instance, if they release a Harpy with completely overpowered rules, I'd be more inclined to wait until a full codex release before starting a Tyranid army on the basis of that.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I 100% agree with what your saying for sure. One thing though is everyone buying them HAD to know that was what was going to happen (every time I played my friend who used them I told him to enjoy them while they lasted lol).

      They were without a doubt the most over powered units GW has ever released. They were 22pts and 25pts/model for units that should have been at least 45-50pts/model. The thing is if the revised rules were the original rules GW released I think people would have still been happy as they are quite good and make sense and fairly balanced. Both units are still fantastic (unit of 9 guys with 2 wounds, decent save and each with an AP4 flamer is amazing). This is the first time I personally have considered doing mono Tzeentch as all the rules seem super fluffy and fun, plus everything is plastic minus the Lord of Change (which rumors say he will be plastic soon enough).

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    2. You and me both. I've been thinking of doing a Tzeentch army for some time, partly as a modelling/sculpting project. I wanted to base it on a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army having undergone the fleshchange, with marines morphing into horrors or flamers.

      I think I may still go ahead with it, as lots of heralds and psychic powers would be fun to play.

      But I am a little miffed that Tzeentch now seems to be bottom of the pile again. I'm not a power gamer by any stretch, but it would be nice to win some games with an army that I had potentially slaved over.

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    3. Well, if we don't compare them to old flamers, new ones aren't awful. Jump infantry almost heavy flamers? That isn't bad, especially with the at-initiative 10pt AP2 CCW for the herald. Same as before: jump, flame, wait for them to charge you, overwatch, fight. Just... less blatantly OP.

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    4. I don't feel one bit sorry for the spammers. Spamming OP units is killing the game, and makes pick up games a nightmare best avoided.

      Delete
    5. @Saleking,

      As far as I know Horrors can't overwatch because their shooting attack is a psychic power and you can't overwatch with psychic powers...

      (I may be wrong as I don't have my rulebook in front of me)

      Delete
  12. I welcome the changes. Honestly, I am sick to death of all the Internet netlisters constantly complaining about the perceived nerf. They are still good, just not stupidly overpowered. If you take a balanced army and are actually half-decent at the game, then the codex changes shouldn't actually affect you that much.

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    1. Exactly, but many netlisters aren't half decent at the game. They rely on exploiting imbalances to cover their infantile tactical acumen.

      Delete
  13. Warp flame in fantasy WoC is same rule and it stacks. So death company get hit, pass test, now they're FnP 4+ lol

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  14. If only Plague Marines weren't battle brothers so you could "accidentally" clip them with this a few times.

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  15. If you don't like what GW is doing, whine complain and THEN STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS. The reason GW can make a policy of continually increasing their prices is because their products are inelastic (Increases in price do not cause a proportional decrease in demand). Games Workshop does this because each and every one of you who are buying GW products incentivise it. Not only does this behavior damage your wallet, it also damages the hobby. Because even though sales don't decline proportionally, they still decline slightly. This means a shrinking hobby.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I can't stop buying GW crap. I need help. They're like crack to me.

      Delete
  16. I'm going to punch Phil Kelly in the face for ruining my Flamers and Screamers.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Don't hit the poor guy too hard, you big scary man. While I certainly agree that a rules update for a toy soldiers game is a valid reason for physical violence, you don't want to go overboard.

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    2. Nerdrage!! I'm so furious because i just bought 9 boxes of flamers and 9 boxes of screamers a few months ago.

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    3. On the upside, they're quite nice sculpts ;)

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    4. Yeah, I don't feel bad for you at all. You went out and bought the most overpowered units so you could spam them and win with little effort.

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    5. Yeah, I don't feel bad for you at all. You went out and bought the most overpowered units so you could spam them and win with little effort.

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    6. I share the same feeling as Ian Johnson, I also don't feel bad for you. I knew this was coming and luckily I didn't buy any models at that time.

      When the WD update appeared it was too obvious these units are too good for it's cost. Any person with a clear head can see this won't last long. Knowning GW they always adjust rules to boost sales. This isn't the first time.

      If you're dedicated Tzeentch-player then this wouldn't bother you too much. Tons of flamer templates is still a scary sight. Though less attacks then previous Screamers can still dish out S5 AP2 attack(s) which is better than nothing.

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    7. Dedicated Tzeentch player? You called?
      I'll run a squad a flamers instead of two, other than that, this isn't bad.

      I have no pity for you, D6. You jumped on GW's intentional "let's make these units OP as MESS long enough to get some sweet cash out of it" bandwagon and paid for it. The people you roflstomped before with your natlist will be asking for rematches soon... sow what you reap, man.

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  17. I just want to know why they didn't release the "real" rules in the WD update. Why provide a blatant short term power boost if not to sell more models?

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    1. ^ You sir, hit the proverbial nail on the head.

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    2. It's pretty sneaky and underhanded. Hopefully people will have enough sense to not play into it next time GW tries it so they won't treat it as a valid marketing strategy.

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    3. Maybe they just, uh, saw how overpowered they actually were after they released them? I have a general policy of not attributing to malice what can be just as easily ascribed to incompetence. Everybody makes mistakes, people.

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    5. No way Von. The codex and the WD were too close. They would have had the printed before they could have "realized" that they were OP.

      Seems pretty obvious what happened here.

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    6. I mean, let me think about this. So screamers:

      You lose eternal warriors
      You lose Fearless
      You lose 3 attacks
      You gain save rerolls on a 1

      That's balance guys?

      I would have said, lower the attacks by one, and GG, balance. GWS went incredibly overboard. You are never going to see these guys again. They are necron pretorian tier.

      You guys that are saying HELL YEAH! are being super mean and petty.

      Delete
    7. 25 pts for 3 attacks at S4 AP 4, with that durability and jetbike speed, and the slashing attacks still? That's good. I still ruin guard blob's days. 1 attack S5 AP2, before I1? By itself, not amazing, but that combined with the speed and versatility makes them easily usable.

      I'll still be using my 11 screamers.

      Delete
    8. Dont forget two wounds!
      They seems balanced now - 1 tough strike or lots of strikes for hordes. Good!
      Also, with Tzeentchs divination, even those few strikes with ap2 should get job done (reroll hits!)

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    9. i am looking at some photos of the codex, and screamers base attacks are s4 AP-

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    10. Still ok with that. Number of hits will still force enough saves on 4+ armor.

      Delete
  18. I think this will be the best post 6th edition codex release so far. Gw clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this codex, making it very different from the previous. csm and da were more of a points cost change with a few new models. Especially csm which has too many copy and paste units from the previous edition.

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    1. I dont agree, you have to throw a looot of dices just for doing some shootings... dices for the tables... dices for the rewards...
      where is the strategy if you cant know what equipment arey ou buying for a HC?
      i have seen the codex, and i really don't think it will be the best codex ever, althougt it migth be fun to have a lot of random things

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    2. >>where is the strategy if you cant know what equipment arey ou buying for a HC?

      None of the options are so dramatically different from each other that they would completely change your strategy.

      Delete
  19. I have had a daemon army for about 4 yrs and can you play this army in a tournament? how does it deal with fliers, ar 14, units in cover ? How does it get across the board ? Against elder, nids ,and gray knights the pink horrors are worthless .Rune priest will also shut them down .If balanced means weak ,then this looks to be a very balance army. I am going to box it until all the other army's are balanced with it.

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    1. I'm going to WAIT UNTIL I HAVE THE BOOK IN MY HANDS. I'm sorry for caps, but we can't say the book is terrible until we've played some games with it.

      Of course, we can't say it's good either, but we don't all have to be pessimists.

      Delete
    2. sorry if it comes across as dicounting your opinion, you've been playing daemons for twice as long as I have.

      Either way, we're used to getting the best out of bad codices, aren't we? ;)

      Delete
    3. How is looking at 3 units and focusing on their obvious weakness (while ignoring their strengths) make the whole codex crap? Sorry, but mono lists took a hit, but the army as whole got much more interesting.

      What people don't understand is now that troops are so dirt cheap, you can have huge squads, and that early shooting will be split. 20 Daemonettes, 20 Bloodletters, 20 Plaguebearers, and 20 Horrors, that's under 800 points for 80 troops in 4 scoring units. That leaves plenty of points for GD, DP, Soulgrinders, and the various fast attacks/elites. There will be so much on the board, you opponent will not be able to focus enough firepower to stop you from closing to assault range. Daemonettes and Bloodletters will make short work of most units, while the Horrors can put so many shots on the 2+ save units they will collapse. Plaguebearers sit on objectives and are damn near impossible to remove (2+ cover save in ruins).

      Delete
  20. Tabled 2 guys with the following 1850:

    2 LoC (naked) Divination

    3x11 Horrors (naked)

    3x9 Screamers (naked)

    3x6 Flamers (naked).



    Thinking of changing to this:

    1 LoC (naked)

    3xHeralds of Tzeentch, Disc, Lesser Power (staff of change unless I roll well). This is to give out Divination on the screamers (REALLY helpful). Alternatively, drop the disc and make the horrors throw S6, 'twin-linked' shots.

    3x16 Horrors (naked)

    2x6 Flamers (naked)

    3x9 Screamers (Heralds go in each one)


    Overall thoughts, Heralds will be the way to go. MC's just die *WAY* too fast with a 5+. Soon as you're out of combat, you're pretty much a goner.

    With the Lamprey 1 attack, having the prescience really helped out... hence now I'm going to put heralds in there. Also increases their LD by 1 instabilities.

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    Replies
    1. Wow, you tabled 2 guys with units that "clearly are so nerfed they will never appear in anything remotely resembling a competitive list." You must be a genius!

      :)

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  21. We all knew flamers would get toned down. They were obliterating armies before anyone had the chance to move.

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