82 Comments:

  1. This is so stupid. Why do they continue to kill off the fan base....

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    1. GW, boycotting itself again:
      -Rise prices = get more profitable clones.
      -Overpriced printed material (and digital rules) = proliferation of pirates.
      -Get more dificult buy a good priced GW products = "f" off GW, I'll play with "Flames of War", "Infinity", "Warmachine", "Dystopian Wars", "X-Wing", "Dust"...

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    2. @Dados

      I can't wait until 3d printers are affordable, then we can pirate the miniatures themselves from GW. Because honestly, a company that makes decisions like this no longer deserves to get money from their fans.

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    3. @Chris - You know, I don't think the cost difference is that significant right now.

      Check out the Formlabs Form 1. I did some math with the guys from there at SXSW using cultists and guardsmen as references.

      Once you have the hardware, the cost to print a serviceable miniature would come out to somewhere south of $5, depending on the complexity of the build. If you are willing to put some effort into your 3D models by cutting up the surfaces for assembly (like creating cavities in the torso, having any embellishments be snap on), that cost can go way down.

      The cost for a cultist from the GW website is around $2. It's not a huge gap to close, and the main cost center (besides the printer) is materials, which will get cheaper and better as economies of scale are achieved.

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    4. http://ces.cnet.com/8301-34445_1-57563395/still-emerging-for-now-the-3d-printers-of-ces-2013

      Oh they're coming, and getting cheaper each year. There is an Israeli company that sells them for about $1k.

      GW is the only company I know that is actively trying to put itself out of business with its model, yet people continue to buy from them... STOP, please... It's the only way.

      Someone please hire Jes and Phil away from them so we can get back to a game that honors their elders and new players alike.

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    5. Um ... guys? You can already purchase 3d printers for $700.

      www.solidoodle.com

      I bought one. It's pretty sweet, I don't fiddle with the settings at all and even at the quickest printing (ie, absolute worse printing resolution) I printed out a nice looking Leman Russ. And that cheap printer can print at up to .1mm which is rather detailed.

      The material is cheap as chips too. $30-$40 for a 2lb spool of plastic. With that I printed: Leman Russ, 3x modified chimera-rhinos, a dreadnaught, 40 man size minis, 6 ship stands for X-Wing miniatures, at least 5 decent size (ie, half tank) random things when testing the printer out. I feel like I'm forgetting some. Still though, even that is an impressive amount of printing for one $30-$40 spool of plastic. Cheaper than buying ONE GW tank.

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  2. I hope the impact to GW's bottom line occurs soon so they make the connection.

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  3. Understand, they arent leaving the hobby, they are just closing the online store. They are going to keep focusing on The Vault, making all kinds of videos and such. Thats a revenue generator for them. Matt said that they make $3000-$5000 s month from their direct order stock, and GW has now placed a $500/month cap on direct order products. That cuts his profits $2500-$4500 a month, or, $30,000 to $54,000 a year. Very few business can take that kind of revenue cut and still justify their existence. I do look forward to their batrep videos, as they are some of the best on the net. Turning their time toward The Vault, may actually result in better quality stuff from them, further contributing to the hobby.

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    1. just a note, not profit for the direct order but an order of 3-5 k a month, probably 10-15% of that is profit.

      still rediculous

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    2. You are correct sir. I should have used the term sales instead of revenue. Still, 30-50K in sales for a small business is a make or break.

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    3. So you think they will keep supporting the Hobby when GW gives them a Hard Time?
      Whats the Point for Anyone to still Support GW? Its Not like they are Doing Things for their customers or the Hobby or the Game. Everything GW undertakes is to further their Profits.

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    4. The thing that sucks is like what was said in the video, the game is fantastic. 40k and Fantasy are great game systems, the miniatures are beautiful (and GW does pave the way for new types of manufacturing), just the corporate end is full of idiots. The game is being ruined by the business.

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  4. I really like that Mathew went through and commented on (some complimentary some rebuttal) GWs various policy changes and more importantly GWs own as stated reasoning for their policies and changes.

    I for one agree whole hartedly with Mathews responses to GWs reasoning. There are soooo many holes in GWs stated reasoning that its somewhat frightening that there are people within GW that must believe these reasons. Another example of those at the top (or at least those making big decisions) are far too removed from the reality of the hobby, their own stores, certainly their independent retailers and the individual hobbiests themselves.

    I wish nothing but the best to Mathew, the rest of the crew at MWG and their families who are also impacted by this. I know they plan to continue on with the Vault and I'm thankful for that and will continue to support them through my Vault membership as its a wonderful resource.

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    1. I don't think there's anyone at GW who really believes the reasoning. It's a case of "We want X result, so we'll create Y justification." It's a little ass backwards.

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    2. GW reasons have never been real. Its just smth for fanboys to use as Argument.

      Not the 1st Time GW destroys small Communities that Support the Hobby.
      Guess they make more Profit this Way. Or at least they think they will! :D

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  5. I've been saying for years now that GW is actively discouraging sales of certain ranges like Sisters of Battle, while fan boys vehemently deny it and defend the actions of GW. Here is the proof in bold, undeniable, daylight. Don't agree?

    A real scenario; Myself and another local SoB player both want to make purchases next month of SoB models, yet with the new Tau codex coming out, we now know that we will not be able to order from our FLGS since much of the qouta for direct order will be eaten up by special Tau orders. The effect? We probably just won't end up buying the models after all... a lot sale opportunity.

    I love the GAME of 40k, it's setting and my army which I built before the current regime took over and virtually squatted them. But I shake my head at this company which is clearly interested in making a quick dollar, even at the expense of alienating it's long term fan base.

    Sorry GW, you won't see another red cent from me. If and when I buy new models it will be from eBay, tourney credit, second hand or online retailers like Spikybits who actually -do- invest in the gaming community.

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    1. Spikey wont be for Long. GW is also fighting Stores that sell bitz.

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    2. due to GW's crazy pricing and other BS they have been doing, me and my friend who play have adopted the policy of porxying anything. I personally no longer feel any desire to buy the models with all the price hikes and bad service they have done. We love the game, and will keep playing, but we wont be giving them much more money, cause lets be honest, they dont deserve it.

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    3. @Kevin

      Same with my friends, none of us have made any miniature purchases (other then maybe one boxed set each) in nearly 2 years, yet we all play the latest armies. Printed out codexes+proxied armies means no more money to GW.

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    4. Isn't it a bit odd to continue playing a game when the desire to buy or work with any of the products is gone? Wouldn't it make more sense to support and play another gaming system? I read so many comments about people proxying models, and to me it's the equivalent to illegally downloading and playing video games.

      Personally, I tread GW like I treat record companies; the corporate side is typically greedy, but the creative is just a group of people trying to make a living doing what they love.

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    5. Onshava, that was beautiful. I refuse to play against people that have proxies out of laziness. If I have to build and paint models, you can too.

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    6. Onshava
      What Planet are you from? Comparing Proxies with Stealing is a bit far over the Top.
      This is a Game with non perfect rules. Jet you demand People should BuY everything? Srry i rather playtest Before i spend several 100 bucks on smth in wont use becaus GW put no effort in rules or design!

      And Saying People should stop playing if they dont buy is totally against what the Game is about! If all my opponents stop playing Once GW doesnt releas anything for years or doesnt Support the Army (like SoB) or Once they Own every Model in the dex, then i would have NOONE to Play against.

      The "Game" is Not about buying all you can and then Leaveing the Hobby for Good as GW might want you to do!!!

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  6. OK, before I say this I do not approve of what GW are doing atm. That having been said, I do get it, here's why:

    I used to work for them (ages ago) as a front line staffer. Even then this would happen on a regular basis: I would spend time and effort aiding and advising a customer who would then go and buy it from an online retailer or FLGS for no other reason than the discount. Some would even say this to my face as though I would want to give them a cookie for taking money out of my store and imperiling my job.

    Something to bear in mind, regardless of your opinions on the stores. GW are the ONLY wargames manufacturer to maintain a chain of stores. It is a HUGE part of their costs. Every city analyst tells them that they are idiots to maintain bricks and mortar and that they should be online only. They don't do this. Why? Because they recognise that you need bricks and mortar to recruit the next generation of players that (unless you have a very, very rare one) the FLGS are not doing.

    It is this that leads to the "freeriding" feeling. It is possible while combining the two points I have outlined to feel very "used" by those who are doing NO recruitment, who are not available to provide help, advice or free lessons and who take your business away because of nothing more than a discount that amounts to a few quid on all but the most expensive items.

    I like getting my stuff cheaper. I am sad that GW doing this. I'm sad that a company that make products I love are taking a PR hit that will put more and more ammunition into the mouths of people who mostly hate them because they are successful and try to protect their success. GW are the Microsoft of wargaming. They have put the time (30+ years), money and effort into becoming successful and are the target of hate from people who still use their products.

    This has been a longer and more rambly post than I was intending. The grey realities between the black and white yelling always takes longer to explain. I'd put this in full article form on my own site but tbh, I really stay away from this sort of thing on PVP. I just want to write about painting models and playing games. Y'know, the hobby.

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    1. I can see why GW is doing this, too. I don't like it, but I get it. I've always been amazed at how my FLGS continues to operate, while providing gaming space to people who buy all their products online. If I go to a flgs, I'm going to buy something, anything, to actually support the local store where I roll my dice.

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    2. "I used to work for them (ages ago) as a front line staffer. Even then this would happen on a regular basis: I would spend time and effort aiding and advising a customer who would then go and buy it from an online retailer or FLGS for no other reason than the discount. Some would even say this to my face as though I would want to give them a cookie for taking money out of my store and imperiling my job."

      That's what happens when you set yourself (GW) up so that your absurd pricing means that your in competition with yourself and international markets.

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    3. Except most GW stores are worthless once a customer has purchased something. How many are left that have the room for anything more than a single table for intro games? How many have room for more than one table for folks to just mingle, hang out, paint etc. How many have more than one staff member on duty at any given time? The list goes on.

      I believe the LGS and those (players) already invested in the game are far far and away more responsible for bringing in new players than all the official GW stores combined times 100.

      I would never wish or want for anyone to lose their job but if GW wants to make more money they need to close their stores and support the Independent Retailers. Go back to supporting tournaments, get a real online presence and actively interact with their customers. As Mathew correctly pointed out in his video, GWs new website is garbage compared to the old one. Bring back the content and stop making everything (it's ok for some of it) only about sales. And stop with the one click purchase bundle crap that saves the customer nothing but a few clicks and likely causes GW to lose sales since the customer is no longer perusing the site but instead clicking one button.

      GW is pushing in the wrong direction and it's going to bite them in the rear eventually.

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    4. When? People have been saying this for 13 years now. When is it going to happen?

      They are pushing in the profitable direction, and protecting their employees in the process. The employees who are actually committed to their products, as apposed to many independent stores who actively advertise their competitors but will still happily take your money.

      Also, I live within ten minutes of 4 different GW B&Ms, and all of them have a half dozen tables and paint stations. Most of the independent stores in my area have long shoved their GW products to the dusty back. Why NOT protect the former over the latter? I think anyone here would want their company to protect them in similar fashion.

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    5. Waaaahhh !!!
      GW Could just stop selling their Products to resellers. They cant live Without them!!!! Thats just the fact. They Need flgs and they Need online retailers for customers that live far from Stores.

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    6. What you fail to mention is the loyal fan base that have helped build this hobby. Most cities do not have a GW store and a few years ago just a hand full in the US. This is a very different market with very direct contact between comsumer and producer, so it is very easy to cry fowl when they are being asshats.

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    7. I used to work at a local GW store back in the day and I saw it all the time. People come in and bragged about getting their whole army online while still using the tables.It bugged me as an employee but It made sense. My response to my manager at the time was why don't we have a table fee or a club membership to help out with people not buying product from us. his answer was "Nope that wouldn't work" and that was it. I don't see why GW cant have people sign up for a table membership for like $20 a month to supplement some of the lost revenue.

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    8. I could see a table fee working in some cases, but it'd really hurt the younger crowds. Plus then people would gripe about having a fee attached to their game playing.

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    9. The Pirate Viking- That was awesome. May I qoute that? It really sums up how I feel about the whole situation. A lot of crybaby gamers out there don't get the big picture. Our hobby does not grow without recruitment. I went to a few LGS and to be honest they could give two shits less if I was there. But when I go to my local GW, the worker there engages me and the people that play there take the time to get to know me and want to play with me rather than treat me like an outsider.

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    10. PRecisely, the brick and mortar stores are there to acquire new customers, not necessarily to make profit out of them. In most companies the acquisition campaigns have negative GM, but they will make the money back through the life time value of said customers. Heck you may even need 6 or 12 months to make that customer profitable, but then... how many of us have been in the hobby for 10+ years?

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    11. Michael: Yes, of course, heck the only reason it isn't on my own blog is that this can of worms is cracked open enough and Fait 212 does a good job of trying for balance in these things anyway.

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    12. "Except most GW stores are worthless once a customer has purchased something. How many are left that have the room for anything more than a single table for intro games?"... Erm compared to an online seller?

      The new policy is directly aimed at helping those people everyone normally says that Games Workshop are screwing over.
      The FLGSes have been calling out to Games Workshop for ages saying that they cannot compete with online companies. Everyone then states the GW are bad. GW then come up with a policy directly aimed at helping the FLGS by driving custom their way. Don't confuse yourselves here; this policy is NOT about GW stores. It is about independent gaming stores.

      GW do a hell of a lot wrong. As a Dark Angel and Eldar player, I have the army with the most expensive and ineffective flyers and one of the armies with no way way of dealing with them. Prices are way above what I would prefer, they have reduced their range of games massively since the hey days, the general maturity level of the games has fallen (bring back Realms of Chaos FGS!) etc. etc.

      But come on! Sometimes, they might just get it right and I for one think this is one of those times.

      GW KNOW that there is no future without tables to play on. On line stores never give tables and threaten those retailers who do.

      Call me 'fan boy' if you have to. I will see it as the alternative to 'unthinking dumb-ass who cares nothing for anyone but themselves'.

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    13. I wouldn't call you a 'fan boy', I'd say that you're one of the few of us with a modicum of common sense enough to see past the end of your nose.

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    14. Except that you seem to be operating from a very UK centric viewpoint. Where I live there isn't a GW store within 300 miles. Shadar Logoth, who has 4 stores just down the block, that's great. That doesn't hold true for pretty much any country in the entire world except the UK. So John Doe who lives in Great Falls, Montana in the US should just suck it, so that the UK can have their GW stores?

      Maybe you guys should realise that MiniWargaming was a club as well as a Brick and Mortar store, with an online component to it. Those tables are now gone. The club is over, although Matt has said they might try to figure something out in the future. Thanks to many things, but finally the Trade Agreement change at the end.

      GW should either make models and use distributors or sell them. Not both. If they are so frackin' concerned with profit, then stop selling to distributors or non-GW stores. Would that make you happy? It would effectively kill 40K and Warhammer around the world, except in the UK where the vast majority of stores are.

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    15. As much as this is a valid criticism, GW is not allowed to complain about competition which they created themselves with their ridiculous pricing schema.

      If the prices, adjusted for exchange rates, were the same everywhere you WOULD NOT HAVE people buying from other locations in lieu of your own brick and mortar stores unless they wanted to support a FLGS or similar, and then that is a service problem not a financial one. You equalize prices, and charge your distributors slightly more for the product then you allocate to your own stores. That way you can compete with or alter the lower prices offered by your competitors, which nobody outside the UK will complain about since they will be seeing a 40-60% fucking drop on prices. More like 80% in Australia.

      The problem you described in the OP is created as a result of practices like these, not in spite of them. They cannot prevent companies from selling their product more cheaply without just refusing to sell to them or altering their pricing model, they have created their own competitive market with the idiotic pricing system they have set. Even if they wipe out third party retailers on their own sites, nothing can prevent private resellers on eBay or similar sites, and the market will simply migrate there. You can't fight the Internet and the progression of technology. You either adapt, or die.

      They can continue to support the horse and buggy, or invest in the automobile. It is their choice.

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  7. GW has never been more profitable. While I disagree with their treatment and prices, they have been very successful managing their games.

    On the other hand I used to love MWG's videos until they became inundated with that game that Matt is trying to make (the name escapes me because I refuse to watch it).

    People often complain GW this and GW that. But according to their last audit financial statements they are doing pretty well, in fact even better than before.

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    1. Yes
      But that was due to paintrange & 6th ED. We dont know if that was their expects Goal. Next Year they wont have a paint Range nore a New ED. I suspect a huge Pricehike is inbound, to make up for this. Also i would bet Overall Money spend on Hobby and Player Numbers have gone down. At least from what i have Seen so far compared to 5th ED.

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    2. They come out with codecies and new editions all the time. This is part of their normal business cycle. They are doing more than well.

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    3. Just becaus they keep pumping Out New Products doesnt mean that they keep selling as much. They gave the Tournaments a "f... You" with 6th and Flyers & aiges Lines dont make up for underwellming dexes. As far as i read the annual Report its just Paintrange and the 6th ED ( that sells Good as every ED) that make Profits better than 2011. Since then its gone Down and if 2012 is only better compared to 2011 due to Single Events that didn't Happen in 2011, its clear that 2013 will be worse.
      Also Take into Account that every Year has pricehikes. So Even if Profits go up that doesnt mean the Hobby is spreading, only that they milk those who are left more.

      Personaly i Must say 6th is like 3ed for me. Makes me want to stop playing 40k.

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    4. So, stop playing 40K, then. And while you're at it, stop coming here and spreading your terribly written hate...

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    5. Their sales are at all time highs. If you don't like the game then don't play.

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    6. Warlord22, I would love if you quit this game. I would love it if you never posted here again. Please quit. Show GW who is boss. Please.

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    7. No they are Not at a all Time High in Sales. Were do you get that from?

      You shouldn't ASK other to quit the Hobby if you want someone to Play against!
      Even you should realise that GW is priceing People Out of the Hobby from the get go! Who are you going to Play against in 10 years Time?

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    8. @Shemp - while GW may be profitable right now, it's worth considering the fact that senior executives are departing the company at this time. The CEO (who owns half the company) is departing at this time of increased revenue and profitability.

      This business model they are setting up - where they are the manufacturer, distributor and retailer for their own product - is hard to maintain over time. Very hard, in fact - there are really no large companies that have been successful doing it.

      Like, if GW was a car manufacturer, there would be other companies manufacturing after market accessories, there would be independently owned and operated dealerships, there would be service stations with mechanics certified to work on their products. The reason is, there are business cycles to each of these levels of operations, where costs and revenues go up and down. Trying to keep everything going all at once is very expensive and typically not considered good business.

      While I respect the fact GW is doing well on the books, watch to see how they are doing in a couple years. It baffles me why they would commit the company to this track, given the perils they surely know about. I wonder if this was an attempt by senior management to cash in before setting the company up for significant losses in subsequent years. It's reasonable to ask that question.

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    9. Warlord 22, I get that from their own financial statements. That is the only source document you should be using. It is a fact, right now they make more money than they ever have.

      Haggerty, I am not saying GW is perfect, I am saying that claiming because 6th ed came out made them profitable is not true. They constantly come out with codecies, new games and new editions. That is called a business cycle. Your last paragraph suggests you do not believe that in the next couple of years they will be doing as well. I would say you have a 90% chance of being wrong. However, time will tell. They have increased profitability, increased demand for their products and improved their development of models, codecies, books, and other games. They are also trying to improve margins by removing the middle men. This will work, or they will go back to their previously (current) successful model. Usually that does not cause a downturn in profitability. Especially considering that their two largest markets are in an economic downturn and their profits continue to improve.

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  8. I just want to reiterate that Miniwargaming is maintaining its online presence, it's just the store that is closing. So come on by the forums and say hi :)

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  9. The thing is for every independent retailer that is hurt by this change there are ~100 independent retailers that are extremely happy with the change. I would venture to guess that a very common complaint from these independent retailers to their sales reps is the fact they consistently lose sales to online retailers that they cannot compete with on price. In the grand scheme of things, these are the business partners that they live and die by; not the online retailers that this hurt. Though the online retailers probably do sell more individually than any FLGS, I would venture to guess that combined sales through all FLGS is a significant chuck more than combined sales through all primarily online/mail order stores. When it comes down to it, the brick and mortar store are their biggest customer group, not the online stores and not us the consumers; and their new policy is going to make them happy.
    Beyond this aspect, you also have to consider that, more so than the online retailers (with a special exception for MWG, whom I do feel for), brick and mortar FLGSs are the ones that can the hobby and this change directly helps them. For a business to stay healthy, it needs to have gaining new consumers as one of its focuses, and FLGS bring this to the table, where as most online retailers do not.
    I honestly believe that is a smart business move by GW.

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    1. How do you know People will Drive Out and spend more Money on the Same Thing just becaus you Take away their Easy cheap and quik Way of buying online?

      If at all this helps the GW onlinestore Not flgs.

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    2. I would agree with this. Although everyone may love online prices, online stores ultimately hurt the hobby. People who buy online are less likely to continue supporting their FLGS (indeed, just by buying online, they already have).

      Ultimately, GW needs to support brick and mortar stores and the hobby as an in person community first and foremost. I believe that online retailers hurt FLGS and the hobby in the long term.

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    3. That is if you have any brick and mortar stores close by. Which in Sweden is rarely the case.

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    4. Out of curiosity Tylermenz, where are you from and what is your age?

      People who criticize online stores tend to fall in one of two groups:

      People who live in England or a similarly population-dense area, where GW stores are within 10 kilometer radius

      Elderly folks who don't understand how online shopping works or who are fighting the changing pace of technology.

      PJ has a rather good point, and it is an even more damning one in some areas in North America. It is sparsely populated here, and the price is gouged, and there are few stores.

      When you combine these things, in order to visit the only GW store in my area I have to:

      1. Drive 305 km.
      2. Find a place to stay overnight.
      3. Pay 60% above UK retail price.

      This is the only official GW store in my country which is in my time zone. Where I live there aren't even any FLGS less than 200km away.

      To order online, I:

      1. Click three times.
      2. Pay between 40 and 60% less than the marked store price.
      3. Pay a tiny amount of shipping relative to the above savings.
      4. Wait.

      There is only really one choice. If I cannot order online I will simply not buy product. GW's business model is centered around the EU/UK way of doing things where it is a popular storefront in a population dense area with the least gouged prices.

      That does not work in the rest of the world.

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  10. Does anyone know if there will ever be a GW store in the Salt Lake or Ogden areas of Utah? I would like to see what all the fuss is about.

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    1. I'm in that area and I don't know that we have the population to make us desirable for GW to put in a store.

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    3. I used to live there (Sandy), & got started in the hobby there, and frankly you've got a very solid base of FLGSs and don't need a GW store in the area, so I'd say it's not likely that you'll see one anytime soon... (Then again, you're not missing much... LOL!)

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  11. Support your local Indy store is all I have to say, though I don't agree with their new trade policies I do agree with the importance of brick and mortar shops. If you don't have one in your area it's probably because online discount stores made it impossible for them to compete. I try and spend $50-100 per week at my local store wether it be gw products, battle foam, magnets what have you, I am willing to pay the extra 10-20% to help them keep their doors open.

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    1. So how come GW is Not chargeing more at their onlinestore compared to their "Real World" Stores? I mean if they want to Support Stores It would be logical to lead by example!
      how come they have online only Products & carry everything online and Not in store?
      Thats the reason i dont go in Stores, they Never have what i want!

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    2. Sorry, I couldn't bite my tongue on this one. So you're suggesting that GW should purposefully raise online prices to drive in-store sales? To me, the fact that online is the same price is them encouraging in-store interaction. Typically, if you buy online, you're charged sales tax, not to mention shipping fees, which means you do tend to spend more for GW online stuff. If you buy in-store, you cut out shipping costs AND you get the item immediately. Sounds pretty win-win to me. And the reason for online only items is to create products they don't think will be widely purchased in store. LOTS of company's have "online only" items. Big box stores are rife with them. It's a pretty common practice.

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    3. Any 2 items and you have Free shipping.
      If i BuY 1 paintpot the store is cheaper but i have to Park my Car or Pay for the Train and then i can almost Order that aswell. It at least saves me Time. And in Most Casey they wont Carry or are Sold Out on that 1 paint or that 1 figure i want. Always been like that for me at official GW Stores.
      Srry but youre Argument just doesnt work if you dont live next to a store!

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  12. Confermati

    Why I think it is very important to support your local store especially one were they provide gaming tables and allow a gaming club on the weekend. I try and buy single boxes or paints from these places. A lot of these stores by me use to give discounts if u were in the gaming club and I use to buy everything from them. But nowadays they won't give any discount.

    When I start a new army I buy about 80 to 90% at one time and it isn't cheap between 600 to a 1000 to get everything I usually want. I would like to buy all this from my local store but they refuse to give me any type of discount. I have asked them countless times and tell them I will be spending a min of $600 but it will most likely be more and they still refuse to even give me any type of discount. This is why I think online stores are vey important because that 1000$ it's going to cost will only be 800$ at spikey bits or warstore. It's a big difference when starting a new army. If I had to pay full price for everything I probally wouldnt have started half the armies i have. And because I started that new army that I bought at an online store I will now end up buying a couple of boxes from the local store that I later decide I need. if I didn't get that good deal in the first place And started that army I wouldn't now be buying those extra units for that army from my local store. So I believe the 2 in a way give each other business if that makes sense.

    Now while I think it is important to support my local gaming stores I can't justify starting a new army and buying it at these stores. Because they won't work with you any more. I tell them I want to give them that huge sale but I can't unless you are willing to give some type of discount and I don't even expect 20% of from them 15 or even 10% off would still make me happy. I just don't understand these stores that are struggling to get by in this economy but refuse to make a huge sale even if they aren't making as much as selling it full price that is still a big sale and they are still making a couple hundred dollars they wouldn't have other wise made. I'm not expecting them to give discounts for everything I buy but for a big buy like that I just don't understand the thinking behind their refusal to even consider giving any type of discount.

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  13. I'm new to 40k completely, just starting with it this year. I love the models, I love the game, but the process for buying them has been...frustrating to get started. Why?

    First of all, there are no gaming stores here. According to Google, I live 126 miles from one store I really like, and 113 miles from the other. There's a new GW store opening in the same area as those two soon, which is great but still a 200+ mile round trip. So, living where I do, I shop online. A lot. For everything, not just Warhammer stuff.

    Except, the places I'd usually do that don't work; Warhammer gear is bafflingly hard to buy unless you either do it through specific channels, or take the more likely and risky route and buy it through Ebay. Making it impossible to buy elsewhere online doesn't funnel me directly to GW's outstretched arms, it sends me to Ebay where, funny enough, security is a greater risk than if I bought through an actual online retailer.
    They make great stuff. The idea of forcing support for brick and mortar stores is idiotic, though, considering they aren't widely available enough to make that feasible and that their online store is not good enough to compete with others out there unless they force it. If B&M stores are worth buying from and the experience is worth the trip (and they generally are), people will keep buying there regardless of what they do online. GW should be more concerned with letting people actually buy the things they make than trying to control the markets available to do it. Whether they realize it or not, they're drastically limiting the number of new people who will take part in the hobby, and the extent to which they'll take part, as a result.

    Sorry for the long comment, and best of luck to you MiniWarGaming guys.

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  14. Exactly! I love GW's model lines. I think their product is second to none with concerns to rules and the ascetic of the models. But I don't have an unlimited amount of disposable income to spend on it. That's why I shop online cause I can get a 20-25% discount. Now I was always raised to (if you can) Never buy something at face value always look for discounts and/or sales, only an idiot would spend more than he had to.

    Now with regards to the FLGS I am all for supporting them and what they do for the hobby. I do have some around me but they all charge full retail price, never have any sales, and offer no discounts no matter how much you buy. what incentive do I have to shop there I might as well buy directly from GW at that point.

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    Replies
    1. To me, this is more on the FLGS than GW. I've had local shops give me discounts in the past for being a regular customer, because they knew it'd bring me back for more business. Growing up, my local guy would give my mom a "Single Working Mom's Discount" because she brought me in there so much. It's no different than a coffee shop giving you your 6th drink free. The thing is most shops want corporate offer the discount so they don't have to eat the cost.

      Delete
  15. Thought I'd drop my 2cp in here (and it's pure opinion folks, so let's keep discussions civil). To me, it was shady online retailers that drove these changes. **incoming wall of text**

    No online - Let's say you have an online shop that, through importing and currency exchange practices, provides a 20% (or more) discount on GW products, making them even cheaper than the company's store. Not only does this hamper GW's profits, but also hurts honest online and B&M retailers who adhere to GW's pricing structure. They simply can't compete. What this does do is turn hobby shops into browsing markets, where people will check out an item, then buy online. Best Buy has a serious problem with this; they simply cannot be cheaper than Amazon. Btw, this one is pretty easy to get around, as US shops have been doing it for years.

    No overseas - Now, this one is kind of wonky, but it makes sense. Let's say you're a shop that adheres to GW's pricing structure, and with your exchange rate, the models are a bit more pricey than, say, the US. Your customer base will go to the cheaper alternative and drive that local guy right out of business. Most people will go the cheaper route when possible, that's why Wal-Mart makes more money than local grocers.

    No bits - This is something that kind of sucks, but again, makes sense. If you buy a 12-pack of flavored crackers (or fruit snacks, etc), you'll typically see written on the back, "not for individual sale" That's because the item was priced as a whole. When you start breaking down components, you make much more money than selling the whole thing, which is essentially taking GW's product and selling it for more. A big example of this is mom and pop restaurants that sell soda cans. They buy a 12-pack for $5, and sell each for $1.50, and make $18 off of it, or a $13 profit.

    Also bear in mind these trade agreements are for those shops who order their products from GW and receiving a discount to stock said items. Is GW being a bit overzealous in their methods, I think so, but I see it as more for protecting their own product and individual stores over looking to crush "little guy" competition.

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    1. Absolutely, parts sellers can STILL OPERATE. They just have to buy products at full price. Given the way they break down the pricing they can still make money.

      Delete
  16. How is it that in Canada and the US we are even in a position where a company can dictate sales like this? Is it even legal, or just such a grey area no one would ever challenge it?

    I am pretty lucky, my FLGS sells most GW items at US prices so I save like 10-15% on items, but once online sales are cut, who knows if they will even do that any more? If they dont, I will be buying all my items on Ebay.

    It honestly seems like the best thing that could happen to the hobby/IP is for these changes to fail, GW goes in to chapter 11 so it can restructure.

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    1. I am not a lawyer, and maybe there is a lawyer that frequents these boards that could answer, but on wikepedia I found this

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law#Modern_competition_law

      "Section 1 of the Sherman Act declared illegal "every contract, in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations". Section 2 prohibits monopolies, or attempts and conspiracies to monopolize."

      Is this not what Games Workshop is doing? They are in a conspiracy in restraint of trade AND they are guilty of a conspiracy to monopolize?

      Delete
    2. Unfortunately, no. They can only be considered a monopoly (and thus subject to anti-trust law) if their service is seen as necessary to any single sector of business (like PC operating systems and Microsoft or Oil and Standard Oil), and they can be shown to be actively attempting to eliminate competition within that market (like Microsoft and the Internet Explorer debacle).

      Since GW is not actively pursuing a monopoly in the tabletop wargames trade (just in the buying and selling of their own merchandise), this does not fall under anti-trust law. You still have the option of playing Hormachine or Drop Zone Commander if you want. Now, if GW went after Privater Press or Hawk Wargames, that's another story...

      Luckily, the EU has retailer protections in place; once a Manufacturer makes a distro deal with a retailer, they can't dictate the method of sales. Not sure why the US doesn't have these protections. Oh, wait; yes I do! Because Wall Street owns Capitol Hill...

      Delete
  17. It's just amazing that a company would go so far to cutout it's selling partners and hurt the ones who expand and advertise it's product better than they do.

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  18. GW Store worker: You want to buy this kit and this kit and this kit. To have a playable army you need to spend at least $500 for a rulebook, paints, brushes and models.

    So you buy it and figure you could build some at the store.

    GW Store worker: Sorry, we no longer have any painting tables (because it might scare away potential buyers who dont know you have to paint our models).

    You read the rules, you build and paint your models. You now feel you are read for a game so you go back to the GW store.

    GW Store Worker: You want to play? We dont have any tables for people to play on. These? They are only for demo games to show potential buyers how the game is played.

    --------------Alternatively--------------
    FLGS: You need this rulebook and these models that we offer at a 10-20% discount. You need these paints, brushes etc that are not GW ones so cost 50% less and provide you with 50-200% more product as well.

    Feel free to use our painting tables and we sometimes even provide free paints.
    We have a few gaming tables as well in case you want to actually play with the models you just bought.

    I've been to about 5 different GW stores and NONE of them have tables you are allowed to play on, or if they do it was one day per week on 1 table.

    GW Stockholm does have a painting table/gaming table, so depending on the day of the week you can either play or paint there. They have 3 demo tables for the 3 GW product lines but you can't use those for gaming, they are for demo purposes.

    If you actually want to play the game you need to go to a FLGS or play at home. Why should I pay full retail for an already overpriced product when I can get the same or better product elsewhere for cheaper?
    Why should I support a store where the only thing I can do is buy the stuff?

    Maybe I'm retarded but I dont normally buy stuff that I then can't use. Sure I can paint and build the models, the part of the hobby I enjoy the most but why pay full retail for it at a GW store?
    I can get more models from a FLGS for cheaper and play there too.

    It all depends on where you live, some places have large GW store with multiple tables etc etc etc, most places do not. With GWs downsizing you will find the 1 man stores more often than not, these are recruitment centers. If you want to play with your minis you either play at home or at a FLGS, not at GW because you either can't or they dont allow it.

    To those saying GWs sales are at an all time high, THIS IS FALSE! If you look at the latest sales reports you will see that profits are up, but sales are down. Profits are up due to the downsizing and reorganisations GW has done to cut costs. Profits are down because they are selling less product.

    Heck their sales in Australia has gone down with over 20% over the last 3 years. Believe it said 10% down 3 years ago and 11% 2 years ago. Don't remember last year but I know sales didn't go up.

    So what the hell is GW doing? I believe everything they are doing is an effort to entice someone into buying the company.

    First the reorganised the company to make it more profitable, success.

    Now they prohibit online sales etc to force people into buying from their stores, this in turn should lead to an increased sale of product in their stores.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. GW are releasing ALLOT more miniatures than normal, minis people want and will now have to go to a store to buy. Those who can no longer buy online will either; not buy at all, buy at a FLGS or buy from a GW store or webstore.
      All of these are "good" for GWs sales figures because even if some dont buy at all the ones who do buy from GW provide a markup in their yearly reports.

      So in the end what GW has done, all will succeed at is the following:
      Decreased costs of operations, success
      Increased direct or online sales, will be success

      Next years financial report will say: Operational costs are down, sales in stores and from GWs website are up.

      Overall sales will be down or evened out due to the increase in model releases. Heck it might even go up if they release 6 40K armies this year together with Fantasy and LotR stuff.

      So an investor who doesn't really know this market may look at these figures and think GW are doing great and that investing or outright buying the company is a good idea and an easy way to make money.

      Great for those at GWs top who are looking to get rich and retiring from selling the company.

      In the long run though this will happen:
      Decreased sales due to high prices.
      Decreased sales due to unavailability.
      Decreased sales due to competition with better prices for models of equal or better quality.
      Decreased sales due to 3rd party bits/conversion sales.

      GW will continue to raise prices and cut costs every single year until the company folds. Sales have been going down the last couple of years and unless GW really speeds things up they will continue to do so.
      GW are also trying to sell as much product as possible for as high a profit as possible, why wouldn't they? That's how you make a big profit after all. With the increase in prices they are pushing more and more people out of the GW hobby and into other gaming systems or to buy other miniature makers products for proxying. They want to keep prices at a level they think the market can handle, too low and you oversaturate the market, too high and you push potential buyers away. Has GW gone over what could be considered the max? Depends on how you look at it, for brand new product it's too expensive to buy directly from GW for allot of people, especially the 10-15 age market, so they get their parents to buy the product. The question is though if parents will be willing to buy $500 worth of stuff from GW or buy the next generation console instead? For older gamers buying from GW is less enticing than ever, we have discount sellers we can use and the 2nd hand market.
      With GWs "new" ban in the US people will be more inclined to look at ebay for new models instead of the nearest store. People who want to support their FLGS will buy from there, people who dont know any better will buy from GW and regret it later on.

      Profits will be up for as long as GW can keep up the current release schedule but when they go back to what we are used to we will start seeing a decline.
      GW are already selling less product each year, they are now trying to get kits out as fast as possible for the older armies to boost sales figures over the next couple of years.

      I hope GW falls and does it fast so that someone can buy it and build it all up again. Hopefully with better business sense and understanding that the community is what makes or breaks this hobby.

      Then again, this is just my opinion and I'm batshit insane....

      Delete
    2. Bull
      GW sell to all resellers... Online or FLGS to Same Price. They make the Same Profit per product.

      GW has higher staff Cost if they sell more themselves so ist Not Without drawback.

      This whole Thing is only Bad PR and driveing People Out of the Hobby & killing small Stores like miniwargameing!

      Delete
  19. Wow this thread is full of GW fanboys.

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    1. It's also full of people that don't understand business and place GW on some kind of pedestal. Like they should be above this money making nonsense.

      Delete
    2. I'm sorry mr. troll, but when my FLGS owner tells me on a weekly basis that internet sales are killing his reasons to keep 40k on the shelve, despite our 40k customer base being rather large, I tend to listen.

      To maintain the selection and stock that is required as an independent store, you cannot sell at the prices these places were doing. (20% off? WTF?)

      I hate that GW is price gouging on SOME models, but other models are as competitive or better then third party.

      I hate buying online, but some of the model ranges are ridiculous, so I buy ebay or make my own.

      When I can, I buy from our FLGS, and I buy big. They let me play there for free, it's the least I can do.

      Delete
    3. There is no Way of knowing if and how much onlineStores effects flgs.

      Any flgs can sell with Discount if they are Smart enough to compet! The Volume will make up for It. But maybe its to much effort?

      An flgs Here in my area sells for +20% of what GW charges. Where would you BuY?

      Delete
  20. Tabletop wargaming. Awesome hobby. I love it.
    Games Workshop; easily the industry leader and provider of the best product available and widely played sci-fi and fantasy wargaming games worldwide. Awesome hobby, I love it.
    GW have a fantastic product.
    GW have great local stores (I find their choice in store location somewhat confusing though). They are generally staffed with well mannered, helpful and friendly staff and are a great place to start out the hobby (not so much for ongoing players however).

    But.

    Games Workshop corporate policies and corporate staff are a complete antithesis to the praise I gave above to their product or brick and mortar store staff.
    GW trade policies now all but completely prevent their distributors and re-sellers from selling their products outside of the country they are based in. Any company attempting any sort of online selling of GW product would have a better chance of winning the lottery than make any sort of sustainable business.
    GW appears to completely ignore the reality of international exchange rates and appear to not comprehend that the majority of people now have no problem ordering things from one country or another in order to save a buck - but now
    Their prices are now so high that they restrict and alienate their player base to the point none of my friends play anymore.
    How can GW possible justify charging their fans who live in Australia and NZ
    approximately double what it costs those in the US and UK before adding shipping costs into the mix is astounding to me.

    Basically what I believe they're doing is trying to make the most money out of people getting started into the hobby and are making the initial investment but have no intention of maintaining or rewarding customer loyalty in any way. 3D scanners and printers now appear to be a valid solution to their corporate policies and prices.

    Bravo GW. Bravo.

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