Now that I have seen the dex, and had a chance to look over it, I really like the over-all feel of it. Granted my time with it has been limited, and I have dug into its depths, but it appears rather balanced and with lots of playable options. Which to me is how 6th edition is really turning out. So on first glance....

Congrats Phil Kelly and to anyone else involved in the design process. It looks like a job well done.


Now a few things I was noticing, is Pink Horrors. I like Tzeentch, so that is where I went first. Most people are already calling them nerfed. I don't think they have been. I think they are different.

They now use the brotherhood of psykers rule for their psychic shooting ability, and I am a little bit concerned on the wording of how they generate powers. Their powers and very interesting, and the primaris power Flickering Fire is 2d6 shots + d6 for 11-15 horrors, and 16-20 its +2d6. S5 AP4 with soul blaze and Warpflame. That can be a lot of shooting. Even with a leadership of 7, because they are a Tzeentch, they get a +3 when manifesting their powers.

Thats just the primaris power, There are other good powers on the Discipline of Change that they could roll up. Not to mention that the iridescent horror can take lesser rewards and even a greater reward.

The other thing that caught my eyes, was that the Greater Daemons, and their unique counterparts, if taken, move Daemon Princes to Heavy Support. So quite easily we can see a large number of Monstrous flying creatures on the board.Granted they are expensive, but the stat lines for those Greater Daemons (I'm looking at you Khorne) are quite nasty.

As I get further into things, get my copy of the codex, I will have more coming.

62 Comments:

  1. About horrors: Are they really 9 pts a pop? What's the min squad size?

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    1. They really are 9pts. They come 10-20.

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    2. Thank you for posting the horrors rules. I was in super nerdrage mode thinking the had raped my horrors army.

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    3. Is there any reason at all to bring not a squad of eleven instead of 10, if I have 9 pts laying around?

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    4. For mastery level, I remember something about 10 being ML 1, more being ML2, and some other increment being ML3.

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    5. Guess I'll have to field 18 horrors per squad since I can't use only 9. I only use sacred numbers in my squads. Nice and fluffy.

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    6. @SnaleKing

      10 - ML 1
      11-15 - ML 2
      15-20 - ML 3

      Taking 11 instead of 10 will make you ML2, but losing just one will make you drop to ML1.

      Personally, I will probably be going min or max with these squads with no middle ground. I've got 50 of em!

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    7. If I start with 11, and two die, are they now ML1?

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    8. they are ML 1 at all times, no matter how big the unit is. they just generate more warp charges the higher the unit count is.

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    9. As Souba says, one power for the Horrors no matter what level they are. Nobody will take anything but the primaris power on large squads.

      Horrors are definitely nerfed. Deny the Witch is going to be very frustrating, especially after passing psychic tests.

      I'm still going to run them. I just have to accept this game is more rock/paper/scissors than it has ever been.

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    10. Thank God, because the Titanium rock that crushed all (1+1+3xHS Mech spam) that 5th had become at the end sucked ass.

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  2. Will definately pick up the dex. Even if it isnt the most powerful dex in the world. If i want shooting ill throw in a couple of units of noise marines

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  3. About Warpflame rule, how many T tests must be done, just one for the entire unit? one per unsaved wound? or one per the unsaved wounded models that survived (i.e. with 2 or more W)?

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  4. What exactly does Warpflame do? I have heard you make a Toughness T or lose additional wounds with no save. But the downside apparently is that if you pass the test you gain FNP. What people seem to be saying is this power continues to stack with more successful saves.

    ie. Turn one I shoot into a unit of Marines and end up killing two. The rest of the unit gains FNP because they pass a Toughness test. If I shoot them again, and they pass the test- the FNP save increases.

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    1. Tgoingy friend is a fantasy rule not a 40k one warpflame is a chance to do additional wounds to a model that is on going

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    2. Thought that was Soulblaze-

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    3. They can go up to a 2+ FNP.
      It's horrifying.

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    4. 1 toughness test per unit wounded.
      loss = D3 wounds with no saves
      pass = fnp +1

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    5. And ever spell in the Lore of Tzeentch has Soulblaze-

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    6. its not as bad as your thinking for normal infantry

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    7. yes, you have the right of it. Nearly everything tzeentch does is happy to hand out significant buffs to their enemies if they pass a T test.

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    8. The up side to giving the opponent fnp is that the codex kind of makes you want to play opposite gods because of the warpstorm table and instruments. if you have Epidemius and they have fnp2+, its not a bad thing. fnp wounds still count towards tally.

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  5. I'm even liking the elephlies, now that there's clearer pictures of them: they really are making big strides in their models. Really looking forward to whatever they release for the Sisters and/or Tyranids.

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    1. I hate the new rules, but I do like the models. I mean, the riders on the flies are rather static and boring but the flies themselves are awesome, and I love the chariot models, with maybe the exception of the tzeentch flamer thing, which seems to have gone little overboard on the flames to the point of looking more like some sort of tree.... But the khorne motorthrone/cannon? I didn't know what to think of it at first, but I've really come to love it. Shame I hate the codex too much to buy any of it.

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  6. funny how kelly is praised so soon after the releas.... no one praised vetok :D

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    1. I have liked each book so far. Nothing really too outrageous. I probably save a lot of my comments though for the videos that I do for the codices.

      Its also now that we have seen 3 codices for 6th edition, we can start to get a feel for how 6th codices are stacking against each other.

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    2. I praised Vetok, he did a pretty decent job of DA :P

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    3. I liked Vetok's book quite a bit. The new fliers are meh, but most of it is fun and functional. The Chaos Marine book was just a boring, bad version of SWs with only an overpowered flier to really speak for itself, that's not great design in my book. And this daemons book? Yeah. No thanks. My esteem for Kelly, which had been quite high after SW, DE, and especially his wonderful Vamp Counts books, has plummeted.

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    4. Robin Cruddace is actually listed as the co-author. His name comes first, so not sure whether to infer that he was themain man behind this.

      Regardless, there's a large tyranid feel this this dex. A lack of decent Anti-tank options outside of the MC's, and lots of multi-wound T4 creatures, as well as high strength blast weapons. Everything that infuriated Nids players. We now have vehicles, but there is a total lack of synergy here that means you will struggle to put together a meaningful mech force. (unless you go burning chariot spam or something similarly disappointing.

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  7. Hahaha oh, man, so terrible. This book is awful, Nat. Nerfed to hell, no good way to deal with fliers, overwhelmingly melee and super, super vulnerable to shooting in an edition that already favors shooting more than any previous, tons of 'lalrandumb' rules that mostly exist to screw yourself over.... In three to four months when you realize that you were deliberately fooling yourself here, I hope you take the time to issue an apology to anyone you convinced to actual start a daemon army with this article.

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    Replies
    1. Do you have the book in your hand? Have you played the army at least ten times with different lists?

      No? Take your groundless pessimism somewhere else.

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    2. Right?
      Love the way this guy can complain and the book is not even out yet. Sounds like a cheesy power gamer that wants the units to do all the work and not a strategy.

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    3. Protip: Flyers actually suck. Stop worrying about them.

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    4. Flyers don't suck, but the outrage against them is ridiculous. They're not as big of a deal as everyone is making them out to be.

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    5. Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble.

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    6. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    7. I love how groundless optimism is welcome, but pessimism based on the rules as written is taboo. 6e is a shooters edition, and this is a melee book chock full of units that are super vulnerable, both to shooting and in melee, and that like to punish themselves extra for any flubbed rolls, or even buff the enemy if they do well. The stuff that was too strong from the WD update wasn't just tuned down, it was nerfed to hell (lolling at any poor fools who actually bought flamers or screamers thinking anything tzeentch aligned was allowed to be good ever), and the new stuff isn't that hot, either. So whats the strategy with the new book? Spam FA units, try to deep strike in hordes of obligatory troops? Good luck with that, given how unfriendly deep strike is for melee units, and how little firepower is needed to sweep your fast stuff off the board.

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    8. 100% agree @home scpeticon. I have the book, and finished making a 2000 points undivided daemons army tabletop ready in December. My army is now invalid, even though I avoided a spam/cheese/flying circus list. My converted khorne chariots are now count-as bloodthrones, starting at 130 points for 12/12/10 armour. In a shooting edition, in a dex with limited mech, this really hurts.

      We have very little reliable anti-mech, and the nerf to Toughness values means that larger squads are needed. They did update all the useless units from last ed with proper rules.

      My issue is not with specific unit rules, (although wtf happened to Tzeentch)it's with the fact that there is way to much anti-infantry, too much vulnerability to ID. The issue with the random gifts is that you can't customise your character. SO yes, it represents chaos, but it doesn't reflect my personality or playstyle. My heralds cannot be separated from another daemon players.

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    9. I actually have played the new book in 8 or so games already, using very different lists each time. I can conclude:

      Nurgle Troops (either Pb or Nurglings)are amazing. Get them in ruins. Take Plague Bearers in squads of twenty with Herald. NEVER EVER leave home without Greater Locus of Fecundity.

      Every army needs Grimoire of True Names and the Poly. Place them on two of your Heralds of Nurgle in the army, which should be on the far corners of your deployment zone, in ruins, on a objective.

      Take a 20 man squad of Fleshhounds with Karnak or HoK on Jugger with Great Locus of Fury. Run them in a 'v' shape with all your assault/ fast units behind them to give the behind units a cover save. Then use Grimoire to give the hounds a +3 Invul Save. Profit. Cheese mode is run a second twenty man squad with another HoK or Karnak behind them.

      Soul Grinders of Nurgle with Phlegm Bombardment are god tier. Max out your Heavy Support in every game with these guys.

      Stop fearing Forge World. Take As many Blight Drones as you can. They go hand in hand with Soul Grinder.

      If you are a Tzeentch player, Flamer/Screamers power gamer or even a FateCrusher player from 5E. Lay down and try not to cry. Tried all these lists with the new book...

      Aegis Defense Line is your friend if you have 50 points left over.

      Slaanesh Chariots can go Flat Out 27 inches. Watch gun line armies and hordes freak out.

      Now matter how bad you feel about the 40k book being nerfed,take joy in knowing your books still didn't receive the nerfing its Fantasy counter part got.

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  8. because flying daemon princes cant take out flyers right.

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    1. the fact of the matter is its not a power codex the people will bring to tourneys with a cheesy list and win hands down or with little resistance. it is however very balanced, tons of fun and also chaotic.

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    2. I'm hoping we're seeing the end of the power codex. 3 books in and so far so good. After all, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Necrons will have to be rewritten eventually.

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    3. I love how when the Necron codex dropped all the power gamers talked about how weak it would be and now it's a "power codex." Even though it's not placing disproportionately high or low in tournies, despite it making up an above average percentage of participants do to peoples flawed perceptions.

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    4. Not particularly well, no. Positioning is a pain for vector striking, and the tougher fliers are pretty hard to damage with vector strikes even if you do pull it off. If it's all you've got, it's all you've got, and you'll try to make it work, but if fliers are common in your local area, dealing with them should be at the top of your ally detachment priority list, because the daemon book just doesn't do so very well.

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  9. to deal with flyers we will be needing at least one flying Monstrous to deal with flyers, and if you only take one, it should probably be a bloodthirster or lord of change for the high strength vectors/shooting with skyfire. if you take 2 or 3 flying creatures, you probably could get away withought one of the big baddies, but i think a GD will be a must in most daemon armies in the new book.

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    1. Are vector strikes decent Anti-flyer, out of your experience? I keep thinking the positioning will be an issue, but I've never tried it.

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    2. An average of Str 6 of vector striking is "ok". No idea what bloodthirsters str are now. But VS is nice because it now nullifies jinking. Unfortunately flying MC are massively expensive compared to what I can get for my Crons.

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    3. S6 is nigh worthless against flyers, since it always hits side armor. 6's or 5's to glance just doesn't do it.
      Current (1 day from being outdated) bloodthirsters have S8 now, which is what's required for being good anti-air.
      Anti-air *has* to hurt AV12. Not optional.

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    4. S7 is fine for something that works with the VS mechanics, as it gives you a very reasonable chance to score a Pen, and a single Pen can be very detrimental to most popular fliers (Scythes and Drakes in particular).

      S6 doesn't cut it though, unless you got a lot of it (Tyrants that can S6 VS and then S6 dakka into rear armor).

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    5. Soulgrinders get Skyfire though?

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    6. Skyfire, but not interceptor, so it does nothing to help against the Alpha Rush nature of fliers. Also, it's skyfire with a three shot, S7 gun on a Bs3 walker. It's not really worth writing home about. Having it doesn't make them worse, of course. But the grinder will be good or bad based on its abilities vs. ground targets, the anti air is an afterthought. Right now it looks tough enough for its points, but lacks offensive output worth mentioning. You can up its offensive output, but then you're paying more points than it's probably worth. Looks better than most stuff in the book, though, so will probably still be a popular choice.

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  10. Horrors have a few cool tricks. If you add a herald, you can bump the STR of the Flickering Fire to 6. Make the herald a level 2 psyker taking 'Flickering Fire' and 'Prescience'. Cast prescience on your horror squad every turn so the horrors hit 75% of the time and your herald 89% of the time. STR 6 means your wounding T4 5/6 of the time. Your horrors throw out 4d6 STR 6 shots, and your herald throws out 2d6 STR 6 shots, for a total of 6d6 STR 6 shots per turn. Since its twin linked you hit flyers 30% of the time. It will also glance a lot of vehicles to death through volume of fire. You also can hide the entire squad except for the herald and one horror -- as the squad casts a spell. Only one model needs LoS. This works better without a herald as you can limit return fire. The warpflame and soulblaze are bonus effects. Horrors biggest problem is the deny the witch rolls, and the bad army matchups like Eldar or SW.

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  11. I thought horrors only got more warp charges as they went up in number, not mastery levels. I thought they only can cast the primaris power. Now I need to do some thinking. I need this book now!

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  12. Horrors definitely took a hit, but they're also almost half points. You can add a Herald for 45, with Exalted Locus for 20(might be 25), which makes all your powers you manifest +1 strength... so horrors can in theory shoot 24 S6 shots.. issue is, even with 4d6, you average 14 shots, 7 hits..

    Assuming Casting, and no Deny the Witch...
    16+ Horrors ~ 1.39 Dead Marines
    16+ Horrors w/ Herald + Locus = 1.75 Dead Marines
    16+ Horrors w/ Herald + Locus + Prescience = 2.62

    For a minimum total of 144 (16 horrors)
    But most likely if you beef them up, it will be 20 Horrors, Herald (45), Locus (25) = 250

    All of that, and they have a ~25% chance to fail to even cast due to LD 10 (8.2% chance to fail) along with deny the witch at 16.66%.

    If you want to stay fluffy, by all means... but for troops, I don't think they will be the way to go. I would probably rather ally in 2 units of 20 CSM with
    Fabius.

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    Replies
    1. It's a 23.6% chance to fail, FWIW. Still, even with that factored in, their damage/point spent against a variety of targets is still quite respectable.

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  13. One last thing to note about my math above... It took 7 horrors (119 points) to kill 1.73 marines, and they could also get BoC to deal with vehicles.

    I also know it's not 100% statistically accurate, but should be close enough for government work.

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  14. It's so funny how everyone goes right to Marines to determine the effectiveness of a weapon/unit. It's understandable as it seems it's the army of the majority. Just as an ork player I calculate odds of saving a lot differently.

    Does anyone know if Deamons can go to ground? I know they are immune to pinning tests so I assume they can't, just want a confirmation.

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    1. They automatically pass pinning and morale checks, and cannot voluntarily fail them, but are not fearless, nor are they specifically prohibited from going to ground, so they can.

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  15. I sat down and perused the book at my FLGS. Did I miss something, or does NOTHING have Eternal Warrior? I mean, I knew that was coming with the new Daemon rule in the BRB, but I thought at least some of the Greater Daemons or the named Greater Daemons would have it...

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