So this is looking like its definitely in the new rule set. Today we have another source declaring it is, along side some of the details on how it work.

Taking a look at these rules, I definitely am liking how they are turning out to be more cinematic. I want to see these battles and how they unfold, not just on how they look on the tabletop, but how they just might look and feel in the 40k universe. Challenges look like a ton of fun to me, so I am all for them.

From the Beasts of War, here is how they will work.
It looks like independent characters and other characters (not sergeants or other unit upgrades) will be able to issue a challenge in close combat to another similar character. From what was said, the charging unit has the first option whether or not issue a challenge, and if they pass, the unit being charged could issue a challenge.

Previous rumors had the entire results of this challenge combat, if accepted, determining who wins or loses the assault.

On the receiving end of a challenge, if you accept you go into base to base and resolve the challenge. If you choose not to accept the challenge, you fall to the back of the close combat out of base to base and let your unit do the fighting for you, resolve combat normally.

43 Comments:

  1. So if you refuse you can't fight? Maybe I'm just getting confused... It's late at night over in sunny(!) England.

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    1. Yes you can refuse, if you do your IC is pushed to rear of squad and it LOOKS TO ME like your out of the fight. I saw the video over at BoW.

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    2. So I have an IC and so does my opponent. We both know that in a straight fight, mine would beat his, but his could do some damage to the rest of my unit. If I charge, surely it would be obvious to issue a challenge, because it would either remove his IC altogether, or remove it from this round as he is sent to the back of the unit.
      Sorry, just thinking of ways in which this will be exploited to remove ICs from combat.
      Also, I really don't want to see more crossovers into fantasy. I like the idea that the rules are completely separate at the moment.

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    3. Amen, brother. 2nd edition was already WHFB IN SPACE (insert echo) and we spent over a decade moving away from the bloody thing. Suddenly hitting the brakes and shifting into reverse makes very little sense to me.
      Fantasy is good in its own right, bringing the rules closer together just to sucker more people into playing both games by making it easier to switch systems is not the way to go here. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I would not put this past GW.

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    4. I wholeheartedly agree. They just needed to fiddle with 5th a bit... not... make it fantasy in space... and Oh, "cinematic" rules- 20 bucks says they end up making Space Marines better.

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  2. Just for a second I thought I am reading a Warhammer Fantasy Tactics article... but sadly not.

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  3. Yeah it's like they are making Warhammer F40k

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  4. In the Tyranid Codex an Avatar challenges a Hive Tyrant to personal combat only to be trampled flat by a stampede of Carnifexes in reply. I hope if these challenges make it to 6th ed, the Tyranids get an interesting and entertaining response option to a challenge.

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    1. Tyranids don't have many Independent characters.

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    2. That's true. If I recall we only have two; the Parasite and Tyranid Primes. Meanwhile, I can see this being very useful for taking out things like sanguinary priests.

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    3. I'd imagine that'll be FAQ'd with some caveat to certain nid entries like:

      "This unit can act like an Independent Character for the purposes of issuing a challenge in close combat".

      After all the Swarmlord has been engineered for the sole purpose of duels!

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    4. cont..

      In a similar way to how Hive Tyrants 'change' from a MC so they can join Tyrant Guard units.

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  5. This would seem to favor bully CC characters a tad too much, but we'll see.

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  6. Okay, a few things I'm confused about on this one.
    "independent characters and other characters (not sergeants or other unit upgrades)": Right now, there are Independent Characters and Upgrade Characters, which are sergeants. What are the "other characters" you're talking about? Like, Mephiston?
    Does everyone else still fight if a challenge is accepted? I assume you do... And if you wipe the enemy's unit, but your IC goes down...you lose?
    What happens if I have three units charging someone? Do all of them fall back if I lose a challenge?
    If any rumors clarify these, or someone in the know feels like letting Natfka know...

    I dunno, this just strikes me as too...childish. Not really sci-fi, or Grimdark. Just really out of place in 40k, and not really "cinematic" like snap fire or the wound allocation rumors. After all, if I've got ten guys behind me, and some bozo bellows that we should fight one on one, I'll charge him with the help of all my chain-sword-wielding pals, not tell them to hang back, or hang back myself with a power sword. It's just...silly.

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    1. Some units in newer books list some members of squads 'characters' without them having the Independent Character rule. I have been assuming that 6th will discuss characters in it's unit type section and define what is and is not a character. Independent characters then become just Characters that can leave squads as opposed to being tied to a specific unit.

      I am loath to admit it, but this has a huge chance to be abused I suspect. In fantasy a unit Champion can accept a challenge. the enemy gets to over kill it and score some extra combat resolution, but it means the real character is save for a round to stomp the rank-and-file. If Sargent can't say "I got this, Sir." and take it on the chin for the Commissar or Psyker leading the squad then we'll have problems.
      I can't afford to let my squad's Commissar get splattered by a Chaos Lord. That squad loses it's stubborn and thus it's edge.

      We'll see how this works out in concert with everything else.

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  7. Yes, indeed. it'll be very cinematic to repeatedly watch Imperial Guard captains, Tau commanders & Farseers die to the multitude of close combat monster SM ICs in the game...

    Btw, how does a hive tyrant issue a challenge?

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    1. Nom, nom, nom, grrr... :P

      I just had to make a joke so please don't be offended.

      I'll be in the corner looking for my xenos translator...

      CK

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    2. lol, odds are your translator has already been eaten!

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    3. I doubt he could. He's not an IC.

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    4. In soviet Russia...Hive Tyrant challenges YOU!

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    5. I dont think the IC takes off a glove and slaps the opposing IC with it, I think this 'challenge' rule is just representing two leaders seeking each other out in the chaos of a close combat.

      Though that'd be awesome... getting slapped with a power fist would probably hurt!

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  8. And equally fun to watch my archon munch on SM characters... I play Tau and cam imagine how little fun that would be, but then again if an SM unit with IC charges my battle suits I already expect them to die...

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  9. well if other rumours hold true about shooting weapons used in H2H, i kinda like the idea of mr super punchy throwing down a challange to a Tau leader, and then eating a few plasma shots too the face

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  10. Like this better than losing the combat just cause you failed a few saves in the challenge..... Deffinately liking the viscerality and tactical stuff being implemented into our game finally. No more cheesy" removing the guys in the back even though there's no possible way you could have hit them" Thumbs up so far!

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    1. Are you serious? You remove guys from the back for convenience, not because they are the ones being killed. It representing other members of the squad moving forward as their squadmates are killed, to reflect some "fluidity" in the swirl of combat.

      This whole system will be abused. People will simply find cheap combos to assassinate support combos or force tough ones out of melee. It's not "cinematic," as those buffoons at BOW keep saying... it's just dumb.

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    2. Uh that "cinamatc explanation"is abou as realistic as my 3rd arm. How can they be in the back alive then be in the back dead if the firer was not facing that side of the squad? It's more "convienent" to take the shots at the models the firers are actually targeting ie: the ones closest to them. tell me anon, if I were about to be assaulted by a mob of ork boyz and I inflicted 5 casualties, where is the fluidity oF removing the back models so the front ones can get a charge, its unfair as of 5thed but this rule will hopefully fix it giving a chance to armies that struggle in combat. It not a bad rule just one that requires thinking and careful planning like in real life....

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    3. Have fun still being charged out of open-topped battlewagons, dog!

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    4. "Giving a chance to armies that struggle in combat."
      By that you mean that shooty armies will now be able to beat other units in close combat, and run of the mill combat armies will struggle even more, because of overwatch, snap fire, and removing the models at the front of the unit.
      Also, if you remove models from the front in combat, then surely you would, at some point, have removed enough models to make the two units no longer engaged.
      Anyway, the new idea about challenges is definitely open to abuse.

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    5. I wasn't talking mainly about the CC, more along the lines of softening up units before they get to crack your skull. And Shrike, assuming you woul remove the models at the front o combat, wouldn't(assumingly) be a pile in type of move so you couldn't have a gap between the two combats... Again these are just summaries of the rules so I'm sure there's more than meet the eye...

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  11. Sounds a heck of alot like how fantasy works, becomes VERY tactical if you plan your characters right. Scaven, the ratmen, have dirt cheap characters(15 pts) and will sometimes run 4+ in a unit JUST to tie up CC power houses for a few turns of CC while his 'bunker' gets eaten. Only major difference I see is in WHFB the champions can accept challenges. Another tactic is to stick an 'impossible' to kill character in a unit then let him charge out of his bunker to bog a larger model unit for the rest of the game.

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    1. See that would make sense.

      Now why Priests, which are ICs, are priced really high in the SoB codex is then even more of a mystery to me.

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  12. I know its early days, but I wonder how this would effect drazhar?

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    1. Some IC's are tailor made for it. Space Wolves with certain upgrades come to mind. As do Drazhar and the Swarmlord (if he's allowed).

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  13. Verminous Valor for Tau please :)

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  14. Just for fun, me and my brother broke the rules and had our commanders seperate from their units to fight alone.

    Mine was a chaos space marine commander with power weapon and 4+ Inv save. His was a space marine commander with power weapon and 4+ Inv save.

    One turn, one combat, both killed each other. Same attacks, same wounds, same saves. It was hilarious!

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    1. Love it when that happens. Once had a Chaos Lord vs Ragnar battle last 5 turns before they both killed each other same turn.

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  15. In my best Billy Mays voice (which isn't that good, mind you!) BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!

    Last night BoW put another video called Stand & Shoot!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmEmwEJjoK8&sns=fb

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    1. Thanks, Tyarlashan. I was waiting to discuss this one until the morning, since it was really nothing new. Check the latest post.

      (took me awhile to find a good picture this morning of a flamer)

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    2. love the picture actually! Sorry about dropping the gun

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    3. not an issue tyarlashan. I read the comment sections pretty well. As I am not able to catch everything that goes on in our hobby, and there is often someone that has found something I have not yet seen.

      So I appreciate any heads up readers send my way or post up in the comments.

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  16. So the hive tyrant babels incoherntly im IG commander takes it as a changel and charges up alone and gets eaten much to the horror of his troops ya this makes alot of since.

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    1. This is assuming that there are not other rules to challenges (not likely), and that the IG player is on drugs.

      For those not high on drugs while playing 40k. The IG player, whoes commander might already be in base to base, simply refuses the challenge, and moves to the back of his unit out of close combat.

      Cinematically.... The Hive tyrant knows or the hive mind directs, The beast drives itself into the humans, it looks for anything that might resemble a commander. The IG commander seeing the monster looking to rip him apart, moves out of the way, and places a few good men between him and the beast.

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    2. That was just what I was thinking. If my name was Lysander and I knew that if I kill that commisar the whole 50 man strong guard unit will brake. I whuld hunt him down ASAP!!!

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