Close Combat Weapons are getting AP Values for 6th Edition. Now this is not the first time we have heard this, and not the first time I have heard some specifics on what weapons are getting what. Ever want close combat to be more visceral with more death, well this will do it.

Lets take a look at some of the specifics.



We first heard about AP values for close combat weapons from Tastytaste a couple weeks ago, and whispers followed discussing exactly what weapons will be getting what ap value. Now that the word is out, we can discuss the details.

via Beasts of War
*All Close Combat Weapons will have an AP value
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

What will this do to combat....... For one, can we all say the rise of the terminator! This will cut down on what can actually kill terminators. Plasma Pistols, Meltas, Powerfists and Chainfists. This means that if you can get power weapons etc in your terminator unit, you will be striking first against anything that can really take you down (power fists and chain fists).

Since force weapons are in effect power weapons, only having an AP3 seems like a decent, but small nerf to the power that is Grey Knight Nemesis Force Weapons.

Combat with hordes will be extremely deadly, with very little saves ever being made. Roll to hit, to wound, and just death.

What about monstrous creatures? We just do not know yet. This could be a huge bonus to Tyranids if Monstrous Creatures suddenly have an AP1 hit. We will have to wait and see on this one.........

It does over all seem that less dice will need to be rolled in close combat. Will this speed up the game?

100 Comments:

  1. wow, thats kind of dumb, theres already enough termie spam armies. I like the Idea of AP values on CCW (why should a combat knife be the same as a chain sword). Im sure ill get used to it, just a little salty right now.

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  2. This was also in the prisoner/pancake leaked set from months ago. Actual CCWs (chainswords, etc.) with AP6, PW/PF/etc. AP2, and pistols being able to be used in CC.

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  3. I think if this was the case the necrons would have a power fist, and chain fist equivalent. Personally I think this would make terminators way, way too strong.

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    Replies
    1. Necrons have two wordings in their codex concerning close combat weapons, some say "counts as a power weapon" and some state that they "ignore armor saves" (could be FAQ'd to AP1)

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  4. Ork Choppa better get AP3.

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    Replies
    1. Haha that's what I was thinking, the return of the Choppa rule! Now THAT'S how you make Termi's squirm, hur hur!

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    2. Also, I wonder what the AP on a 'Uge Choppa is going to be? I wonder if it will finally see some more use. I like them on Nobz Squads, it's a cheap way to help towards vehicle killing.

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    3. Yeah no kidding! I've been complaining ever since the choppa rule got taken out!

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  5. Curious if this is true what rending AP value will be.

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  6. I've played the test set a few times. which had some of the rules that everyone is worried about and to me the game seemed quite a bit faster once we got things down.

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    1. We found this too, we also found that CC was utterly lethal, the bonus attack for assault weapons, the I10 counter-charge rule and the weapon AP meant CC ended damn fast, we had more than one case where the units basically wiped each other out in a turn. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what other surprises come along for the real thing.

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  7. Necrons have warscythes that could end up as AP2, more interesting I think is where the rending/normal CC weapons end up on the AP. As sons said this idea was in the leak set (force weapons were still AP2 and a seperate entry to power weapons though iirc). Power weapons being AP3 would certainly change a few things up though, normal termies get better as they can expect to survive in CC against a lot more enemies. TH/SS termies become even better than they are now which is a shame, as they lose nothing and gain some survivability against things striking before them.

    Blood Angels would appear to benefit massively unless FNP is ignored by AP3 weapons in 6th (which could easily happen) and sanguinary guard naturally benefit from some improved survivability in CC.

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  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  9. I always wondered why the tyranid book added for a lot of units "CCW: Claws and Teeth" but it seemed pointless to include it as it gave no effect what so ever.

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    1. Maybe so, I'm fairly sure that everything since wolves has been written with access to at least the bare bones of 6th edition.

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    2. ah, it says so also in the space wolves entry for fenrisian wolves

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    3. I always figured it was just so no one could claim that none of the 'nids could attack without CC weapons. You just KNOW someone on the internet would try to say that.

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    4. Interestingly enough... there are some Necron units that are listed without CC weapons. Wraiths and Spyders come to mind. Both have upgrades that seem odd, Spyder's Fabricator Claw Array counts as a CC Weapon. An odd distinction when you could never take more than 1 of these, and thereby never get your extra cc attack for more than 1 weapon. Also Wraiths get access to a Pistol, but can't get the 2 cc weapons attack bonus.

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    5. Just saying, Tau codex written for 4th ed, Kroot hounds-> "armed with their ferocious fangs."

      Not that what all you have said could in fact be the case.

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  10. space wolves dual lone wolves terminators with chainfist and stormshield, 2 wounds each with FnP and eternal warrior, lets go and kill some pathetic terminators!

    but on the other hand :( I have enjoyed playing my thunderwolves with frost blades, but at Ap3 those cannot repay their worth, better switch to powerfists

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  11. Oh this just made my Meganobz very happy! Not that I wouldn't use them anyway ;)

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  12. Yeah... Termie spam all around guys. Now you'll have to kill them in shooting, because you know your lightning claw veteran unit (or equivalent)? The one which struck before Terminators with power fists and ignored their armour save? Well, they're useless! You need power fists to get through terminator armour! Ha!
    On a side note, does this mean that even relic blades can't get through artificer armour? Sounds a bit messed up if that's true...

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    Replies
    1. Kinda supports the rumour that the 6th Ed boxed set will be termy heavy with DA and Chaos.

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    2. Shooting has always been the best way to kill termies. Massed firepower always has a better chance of killing termies than CC.

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    3. but DA have always been termy heavy since they have so many bloody suits

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  13. hmm, both cinematic and game wise I would like to have the opposite. power weapon AP2 and Power fists AP 3 since most power weapons are cutting tools of some sort, it is more reasonable that they are the ones cutting through armor. also it gives the list builder something to think about when paying points, most codexes would make both choices almost equally valuable.

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    Replies
    1. I agree. But AP3 power swords is probably a last minute hack-job band-aid fix to nerf death cult assassins.

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    2. AP3 power will make GrimnR stand out more against the rest but will make all the other HQs in space wolves rubbish along with

      every chaplain many other HQ-units from different codexes and berserkers and so on

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    3. I think the way to fix the IC/HQ issue would be to make mastercrafted increase the AP of a CC weapons by 1.

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  14. YEA DEATHWING FOR THE WIN AND THE EMPEROR

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  15. Another reason to take THSS over LC termies.
    Also, I'll bet monstrous creatures are more likely to be nerfed to AP3 rather than buffed to AP1.

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    1. I think that LC termies become more usable. If I can kill you before you Power Fist strike I don't need a 3++ save.

      Yeah they won't be Anti Elite, but against 3+ they will be ok.

      Naturaly all IMHO.

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    2. But Lightning Claws are almost certainly AP3 unless they lose their wound reroll and gain AP2 instead, which I think is unlikely. LC termies are already good against 3+ marines, but so are a lot of other things that cost less. At the end of the day TH/SS gets a survivability buff, while LC gets a survivability buff but a weapon nerf.

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  16. Mephiston!!!!!!

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  17. Considering that dark angels (who can field lots of termies) are going to be the pin-up army for 6th, this makes sense profit-wise.....

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  18. Hurrah, us xeno players will be so buttfucked with our allready limited saves than we are allready -_-

    And our only effective way of taking down terminators in close combat, incubi, just went completely out the drain if this is true.

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    Replies
    1. Exactly, I guess any Dark Eldar army will focus on shooting even more than it already does now.

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    2. Think Decimators. Also, changing up Trueborn to Dark Lances might start to make more sense as well with their duality, if the meta does indeed include more TEQ.

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    3. Great. Another 4 years of the dipshits at GW giving every advantage to Marines. F this stupid game.

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    4. Another reason why they should bring back the Graviton Gun (for the Tau, heheheh).

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    5. Q.Q post 3 dont need you

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  19. I am mostly okay with this, all in all. However, I thing this makes most powerweapons even more overpriced than they already are.

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  20. AP sucks in shooting, to blunt rule should be better if it was a modifier to the save as in fantasy.
    So I hope this is not true.

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    Replies
    1. I've been hoping for the modified save since the first mutterings of sixth; totally agree.

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  21. Looks like the death of Power Weapons ignore Armour Saves. Curious how 5th ed codexes Power Weapons ignore Armour Saves is going to work out.

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    Replies
    1. My dark angels codex (and I'm sure most other) says to see the rule book for rules on power weapons, so no errata required for that

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  22. This sucks for Wracks and Grotesques. It would be nice to at least get a chance at that 6 armor save.

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  23. I can remember when a Chainsword had a -1 save modifier.

    I'd like to see the return of save modifiers, but there still needs to be some restriction on how effective/ineffective some weapons and armour can be with relation to each other beyond a simple modifier. Perhaps something as simple as the armour piercing rule in WHFB, or retaining some of the AP statistics for particularly potent weapons.

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  24. I pulled this comment I made when the rumour surfaced in April and I stick by my conclusions. This actually makes Terminators harder than Dreads, Doesn't fit the Fluff and certainly creates more problems when examining unit effectiveness vs points. My previous comment;

    'My only concerns with AP for combat weapons rest on two things; Power weapons and Terminators. For most armies, when engaging two attack minimum, 2+ save, 4 4 4 4 stat line models, Power Weapons are about the only option to beating these monstrosities down. If they are introducing AP to combat, it stands to reason Power Weapons will lose 'ignores armour' and gain their own AP stat. What’s this likely to be? Well for me, I would expect this to be AP3. Exactly, no more bye-bye 2+ saves on Terminator deathstars. The only way o beat them in combat will be with powerfist equivalent weapons (which you’d assume will pack a better AP), which means they're beating you first/simultaneously with THEIR Power Weapons/Fists. Game over combat vs Terminators.
    Or, imagine AP4 Power Weapons... Bad times.'

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    Replies
    1. New Rule - Melta Bombs can be used vs Vehicles AND terminators. :)

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    2. Graviton Gun :))))))

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    3. Thunder hammer and storm shield - who wouldn't want them now? This rule is ridiculous in my opinion, because to beat a terminator squad you basically need a terminator squad. And why is there any difference between power fists and weapons? I just don't understand it.

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    4. I don't see this being a problem really, termies are pretty easy to kill with low AP shooting and I'm sure the various Xenos codices will get some AP2/1 weapons as well. The real issue is TH/SS termies as they just don't need to be better than they are for the same cost.

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  25. Agoniser that suddenly cant beat Artificier Armor and Terminator armor? Naah..i dont think so.

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    Replies
    1. They could easily get AP2, GW would have to publish a list of the AP for every CC weapon that is not just a power sword/fist/hammer if only because current 'power weapon' is a catch all term that would disappear.

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    2. If you are playing DE, then this particular bombshell may not have hit home yet. If FNP remains the same, YOUR army just got a ton stronger. Power Weapons will no longer beat FNP.

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    3. actually, if the rule stays the same, the won't. Feel No Pain specifically says that it can't be used on wounds from power weapons.

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  26. Finally Terminators are hopefully awesome again. Some of you remember Terminators would save 3+ on 2d6.

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    Replies
    1. when were terminators NOT awesome? You, sir, have some cripplingly high standards for awesomeness.

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    2. Normal terminators are pretty meh, TH/SS are the gold standard ofc, but LC termies are also pretty meh without some TH/SS to soak plasma/power weapon wounds.

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  27. When will there be a rumor that doesn't stomp all over Tyranids?

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    1. but they are monstrous creatures so they would stomp and kill them anyway, not like a termy cant get squished from a big bug

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    2. We've been burned before, though. We're fully expecting the new ruleset to specify that MC attacks count as AP3.

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    3. Don't get me wrong, they SHOULD be AP2, or AP1 (take that, dreadnoughts!). But since much of what GW's been doing lately favors space marines, sometimes more blatantly than others, we're all bracing for the worst.

      Joking aside I'll be surprised if they make MCs AP3. They essentially roll against vehicles like a chainfist, so it'd be weird for them to have less stopping power in assault than a powerfist.

      Also, and this is the most important reason: it would nerf the Dreadknight. And we can't have that, can we?

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  28. HAHA! I think I'll bring all 50 of my Deathwing termies out of the storage box. + a few characters in terminator armor = 52 terminators on the field for around 2500 pts!

    Honestly though, power weapons need to be able to hurt terminators, If only power fists can hurt them in CC, then that means the only way to stop termies is with more termies. Not everyone can field half a company of terminators like I can. I like a fair game, not a wonky out-of-balanced powerdex creep.

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    1. I think they forgot to mention the 300% points increase for Terminators.

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    2. Or just drop them as you've been dropping them all the time. With a shitton of small arms fire, and assaulting them with another ton of gribblies.

      I never killed them with power weapons anyway; my nids simply stacked a lot of attacks and my blood angel sergeants are carrying fists for the occassional MC or walker so the change is...

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  29. Let me see - MC weapons currently counting as Power Weapons = AP3. Huge nerf. Paladin Draigo Deathstars and the common TH/SS Terminators buffed to Sillyland. Will there be a reason for me to unpack my Tyranids at all, in 6th ed?

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    1. Incorrect, MC close combat attacks currentlt 'ignore armour saves' not 'count as power weapons'.

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    2. ... And will almost certainly become AP3. I already hate Draigo deathstars, and now I absolutely despise them. *Sigh* More marine overpoweredness.

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    3. MC will probably also be defined in the rulebook.

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    4. I stand corrected, and glad.

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  30. rISE OF THE PLASMA PISTOL AND RETURN OF THE POWERFIST!

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  31. Terminators needed this, in my opinion. I will love being able to take Meganobz without Mad Doc.

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  32. Is there any special rule about force weapons?

    OMG, this ap 3 make useless incubi and howling banshees against the space marine elite O.o

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  33. Yay, and armies without power fists (xenos) or 2 armor saves (xenos) get murdered in CC by those who do.

    These rumors are either deliberately faked (doubtful) or from old information and inaccurate.

    I'm not believing anything until I have the book in had.

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  34. This is just so much shit, do we really need to make Space Marines stronger, do Marine players suck that much? Geez, this can't be true, it will over complicate the game and there's nothing wrong with the current weapons as is. They should kick Stormshields back to close combat only and bring back pistols being able to fire twice. Anybody remember when pistols were actually useful to shoot with?

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  35. All models may exchange their Pulse Rifle for a Pulse Carbine with Graviton Grenades for +3 points per model.

    Any unit hit by a Pulse Carbine with Graviton Grenades counts as being in difficult terrain until the end of the next turn. Furthermore, the unit must make a Strength test (use lowest, unmodified Strength value in the unit). If the test is failed, the unit cannot move at all under any circumstances (including compulsory movement) until the end of the next turn. In addition, if the unit is is attacked in close combat, all close combat attacks against the unit automatically hit and the unit suffers from the 'Strike Last' rule.

    Yeah!

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    1. Useful fire warriors? That's heresy! They need to suck so marines have more squishy punching bags

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    2. I like that, I like that a lot.

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  36. Whelp, I think my 4th Edition Chaos Space Marines just became my strongest close combat army, and I play Dark Eldar... what.. the !@#$.. just happened?

    So... under this rule, Termies will get their 2+ vs Incubi, but Incubi get.. nothing.. oh.. ok..

    Thanks GW, thank you. You found a way to make that piece of garbage CSM dex better.. wanted it for years, not sure this is how I wanted it to go down, but hey, never look a gift horse in the mouth.

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  37. Yay! now orks and tyranids don't get saves even in close combat!

    :P

    Orks and tyranids...

    Forever alone...

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  38. Oh I'm so glad they decided to go this route rather than use the strength modifier mechanic from Fantasy. The family of weapons that allowed no save in close combat was getting too big to be balanced anymore... I can't say any of us are surprised that this is happening.

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  39. Blind is looking forward to new shooting rules (aside from snapfire or what have you), or at least updated gun stats. If melee is going to be this deadly there surely has to be some balance out on the shooting end of things. Otherwise my Tau are best of as a toothpaste brand than an army, how about those complete lack of saves in melee...

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  40. WTF. How do you kill termies. As eldar, we have only one powerfist in the whole fing codex, and it is on a stricing scorpion exarch. Termies will ow be near impossible due to pw being ap 3, i will have to brigtlace them. And talk about OP Grey Knights as they can take termies as troops! You will now need a powerfist, which some armies like tau don't even have to igore their 2+ armour in the assult. I think that ccw should get an ap, but that pw still ignore all armour saves and feel o pain.

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    Replies
    1. you wonder why your getting a new dex like next year, patience my friend

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    2. Since the rumor is that all weapons get an AP, it's possible all the codex errata with close combat AP values. I'm sure some of the better Eldar troops will get AP 2 weapons. Who knows? Maybe my Tau Robot suits will get OK (when they hit something) in combat? Then again...

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    3. Its aside the point of a power-suit to be in combat. They are JSJ units for a reason, they have already lost their usefulness in combat, they aren't the throw away unit. They simply need to be able to shoot worth their points.

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  41. Ah , a Xenos bumfuck fest from GW, how typical , and I was hoping to be surprised....

    Well 6th is going to be even more 'marine edition' than 5th ...

    They may as well can all the xenos ranges now, everyone is just going to get sick of being squishy punch bags for all the latest marine OP BS (it WILL happen)

    thats assuming you are not already, money says marines get a new book before eldar do ....

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  42. This rumour isn't true. Just think for a second: the most recent book, and possibly the last book before the new edition was necrons, so we look to the necrons to justify the rumours, and the necrons say that this rumour is wrong. Necrons didn't get termie equivalents, but they did get lychguard/praetorians. Now what do you imagine a unit of jump infantry with AP2 pistols and power weapons at initiative 2 are for? Killing terminators, duh! If they make power weapons AP3 then praetorians become completely useless (not that anybody plays them, but at least their existance can be justified). I call BS on this one. That, or the rumour simply got the AP of power weapons wrong.

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    Replies
    1. I'm inclined to believe they got the PW ap wrong more so than the entire rumor, but I sort of find it hard to believe either way. Horde armies essentially have no save (as most anything overrides their 5-6+) except except in CC, they sort of depend on it.

      And if you take into account the chance of snapfire template weapons... well. I don't think I'll ever see Orks again... I'm already pretty sure Tyranids don't actually exist =P (actually I know a couple Nid players but more often I see them play one of their other armies like Vanilla SM or GKs)

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    2. Actually, I'm inclined to believe the rumor more based on the Necron 'dex. We have Plenty of units that can get 2+ Saves (Overlords, DLords, Regular old Lords, Lychguard) Our Dedicated CC Special Character that Ward describes as "Most Fighty" Has 2+ armor, but no Invuln. DLords, the generic Choppy HQ, also have a near mandatory 2+ Save, and no options for Invuln.

      We have odd units that can choose between a power weapon, and a rending weapon /w pistol, with no cost modifier. If rending remains more or less the same, rending weapons start to look more appealing than Power in some circumstances. Most importantly, we have weapons that say "Counts as a Power Weapon," and then weapons that say "Ignores Armor Save." An arbitrary distinction to make in 5th, so, we've all been waiting for why that distinction would be important.

      Necrons actually see very little downside to this change. (Unless chainswords turn out as AP 4. Ugh.) You mentioned the Praetorian Power Weapon business. Then, Lychguard would have to choose between an Invuln Save, or Termy Busting Warscythes. However, the main melee units actually getting fielded, Wraiths, Overlords, DLords, fare exactly the same vs Terminators offensively.

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    3. Very astute observation, I am going to have to go through some of my Codici (never did figure that one out) to see if there are any other mentions of "ignore armour save" vs "power weapon".

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    4. I know Lelith specifically says her attacks ignore armor. So, if this is true about Power weapons being AP 3, then she just earned herself a slot in most of my DE lists, just for Anti 2+ in CC.

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    5. A bunch of Eldar SC's also have special weapons that ignore armor, rather than count as PW's.

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  43. It seems a great improve to SoB in CC, a lot of Flamethrowers and HeavyFlamethrowers in almost all units, and now with a lot of Eviscerator ( they work like a chainfist ) in squead leaders and usseles repentia.

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  44. Phoenix Lords are back! Drazhar included lol,
    I hope chainswords get AP4, because Striking Scorpions will benefit too.
    IMO, Incubi will also have AP2... if not, they are not worth its points, unless 6th erases their need for grenades.

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    Replies
    1. Yeah. Barrahah? (Swooping Hawks one, has tons of grenades). Loving Maugen Ra too!

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  45. I wonder how rending will work.

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