Almost all of my hobby time of late has been eaten up with preparing to move to a new house. That doesnt mean my obsession (40k) get ignored, it just means less time for it, and some of it is getting packed up for that final move day.

Presence of Faeit is my weekly editorial. I generally report during the week what is going on, and today is my day to comment on what exactly it is that I am thinking of.


Running into other Hobbyists
Its always fun to run into other hobbyists in unexpected places. So there I was taking the kids out to a fun place to play earlier today (I was exhausted from two games of 40k last night), when someone walks by seeing what I am reading. Yes, I was reading the rulebook. I am almost always reading and re-reading codices and other material for 40k. Someone reading 40k books is an obvious give away to the hobby, so of course he sat down at the table next to me and said that he liked my reading material.

We have some very cool people in this hobby, and its always fun to talk about this and other hobbies. So next time if you are out and about, take a book with you, brush up on your codex or rulebook, and you never know who you might meet.

Vector Strike.
Ok. Rulecheck for readers. Can a model take a cover save against vector strike hits? I could of sworn I read this somewhere, but for some reason the ruling and its reasons are eluding me today... and last night during the games.

I will say this.... The Heldrakes in last nights game wracked up a incredible number of kills, including wiping out the remainder of a Grey Knight Strike squad with Vector striking S7 AP3 hits, and wiping out an undamaged Stormraven with vector strikes. This and its baleflamer of course wracked up a good number of kills as well.

So anyone got the ruling on cover saves for Vector Strikes?

Chaos Space Marines
I absolutely love the new codex. I do really think it is a good codex, and can be very competitive. I think the biggest problems with it are for people that there just so many options its hard to see one that just shines above the others.

While I love the dex, I do think that its troop choices are its weakest link. Coming from IG and Grey Knights, where troop choices can be their greatest strengths, I find that Chaos is very much often a specialist army, where elites, heavy support and fast attack choices are the strongest units. While I know you can take HQ's to pull elites into your troop choices, I find their heavy point costs a little debilitating.

So when it comes down to building an army list, I find that its valuable to start with your troops and build up from there keeping in mind the combos and other selections you are going to try and find room for. With this codex you just cannot do everything you want to in one list. Focus and specialize.

Grey Knight Retiring List
I am officially retiring a list temporarily for now. Yes, its just working a little too well. While I am not going to post it, because its still under construction (and on hold til I finish my move), the list is the one you see on the videos of late. It gets a little bit crazy with 29 plasma guns, and a ton more shooting to back that up.  Coteaz is just a lot of fun.

So there will be a last video tonight and then that army is going away for a bit, while I work on something new and exciting. CSMs, Dark Eldar, IG, Blood Angels, Dark Angels...... I just don't know yet.




72 Comments:

  1. Yes, you can take cover saves. A cover saves are just a save like any other, and are always availible unless explicitly disallowed, most commonly by either the Ignores Cover special rule, or by wounds caused in assault (page 26).

    Working out whether or not the model has a cover save (and even wound allocation) is a bit harder. There aren't any rules that tell you how to resolve hits from a Vector strike. The closest are the rules for the Tzeentch Screamer's turbo boost attack, which say cover saves and wound allocation is taken from the unit's final position. Most people use that for Vector Strike.

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    Replies
    1. Sounds solid: BUT its not in the Book. The Cover Save is explained in the Shooting section. There are about 10 Mentionings (is that a word?) of "Shooting" and "firing" on this page (i recall it being Page28). Thats all.

      The vectorstrike is neither shooting nor melee. But: if it where any of both - it would be melee - its a "strike" and we know the fluff of it.

      I would say "no cover save" even for area-cover.

      The normal coversave (non area) does not apply for a secound reason: a model flyn over cant be in 25% cover, can it?

      Delete
    2. Resolving vs hits from a helldrake is particularly hard, they only have a forward los and u can't wound things you have to los, so how do u wound things with helldrake vs?

      that assumes u work out hits, cover etc from where end up.

      and assumes u can't move the heldrakes neck to get 360 los....

      Delete
    3. The necron version says no cover saves allowd

      Delete
  2. Like i Said before.
    If someone Claims a rule ignores Cover he has to Point out the Page.
    in any other Case you get cover

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If someone claims he is allowed a coversave for his rhino that was just jumped on by a mecanical dragon - he has to point out the page.

      Delete
    2. Wrong
      Vectorstrike is clearlly described and there is no mention of ignores Cover or counts as closecombat.

      Cover Save is described in Full lenght & its very clear its Not just vs shoots.

      Delete
    3. Read Page 28 again.

      Delete
  3. A strong argument could be made that since a Vector strike is not a shooting attack you can't make cover saves. You can only take cover saves against shooting attacks per the rules. It doesn't even happen in the shooting phase.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why was deathrolla FAQed so that you can get Cover against it? Why does it say under ramming jink saves can be made?

      It has to be a closecombat attack and Not just a non shooting attack in oder to ignor Cover!
      Or have the ignorescover rule.
      Anything els is just assuming rules.

      Delete
    2. The fact that the deathrolla had to be FAQed and it says specifically under ramming that you can tale jink saves points more to not being able to tale cover saves as written currently than it does otherwise imo

      Delete
    3. Deathrolla is the most to closecombat you will get too. If that was FAQed its very likely anything els will be Not ignoring Cover too.
      Besides Till FAQ comes you have to work with what the rules say or Not say!
      You can Not assume rules were you think they are missing!

      Delete
    4. If there's no ruling to say it doesn't get a cover save, it doesn't get a cover save. Though If it is too over powered against a certain opponent you can always allow itin spirit of good faith or roll on it. Taking 2 Helldrakes for example I would almost certainly allow it against any army. I would probably need to as well in order to get a game. lol

      So much for thinking there was no cheese in this dex eh? ;)

      Delete
  4. pfff... cover saves. Deathwing armies don't need cover saves so I never learned the rule. :D

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You will want cover saves when it's night fighting on turn 1 and you're already in area terrain 30" away from a lascannon, giving you a 3+ cover save.

      Delete
    2. Well unless every single Deathwing has a Shield you still get a better save from a ruin than a Terminator Armor Invulnerable save. (Ruins are 4+)

      Delete
    3. Implying Ward will not give deathwing 2+/3++ by default and upgrdeable to 2++ for the princely sum of 5-10 points.

      Delete
    4. In my army, the only Deathwing terminators that don't have a storm shield are the cyclone missile launchers, and that's because I gave them chain fists. Since DW are fearless, I never bothered learning when I need to take morale tests. (note: I do know when you need to take morale tests!)

      Delete
  5. I would say you only get a cover save in area terrain that gives it. When an MC vector strikes a vehicle, it is resolved against the side armor. The reason for this is that you are striking the top of the vehicle. So I believe against a unit of models, you would treat it the same as an ordinance weapon, where the hit is coming from above. Therefore you would not get a cover save if you are behind a wall or aegis line, but you would if in a forest.

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    Replies
    1. I second this. That's how I would play it.

      Delete
    2. But I got a question, can a flyer use his evade defensive move against the strike ?

      Delete
    3. No, Because Evade states '...may elect to evade in the shooting phase, after rolls to hit are made but before armour penetration...'

      Delete
    4. Rau, It doesn't say that at all.
      Read the rule before tryin to quote it.

      Delete
  6. I explained in a previous article my opinion of the situation.
    A Vector strikes counts as using 1 shooting attack,

    Jink gives a model a cover save VS. shooting attacks since cover can not be taken against assault attacks.

    Therefor with all the information given (which presently needs to be FAQ'd) we have to assume that a model with Jink could use the save VS Vector strike. Vector strike is explained as being a physical attack, but this is more of a fluff interpretation. An example of cover saves being used against "physical" attacks would indeed be the Deathrolla. This is the RAW interpretation.

    A RAI interpretation is Jink is the ability for a pilot (or driver) to make a last second correction to avoid a collision with either ammunition or another aircraft (see Top Gun). For the fluff bunnies I think we can all agree that if our pilots can make a fast correction to dodge bullets, they can probably dodge the giant wing deamon or dragon trying to claw their wings out.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Seeing as it counts against your shot allowance I kind of think of it as a shooting attack where the creature's the bullet.

      Delete
  7. I believe you can take cover saves against any sort of attack regardless how weird it may be. I believe it's possible for DE raiders to use their cover save even if they ram. I'll of course have to double check that, I don't ram as much as I used to!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I want to take cover saves against a powerfist.

      Delete
  8. Regarding Vector Strikes, RAW right now would I believe be that units can claim cover for area terrain against them, but as Line of Sight is never determined, you would just totally ignore anything that isn't area terrain.

    ReplyDelete
  9. What was said above is exactly correct, unless there is a specific exception you can always take a cover save against any attack. Since vector strikes are determined after movement you have to use the final position of the attacking model to determine cover and wound allocation. Though how you determine line of sight for the Heldrake is beyond me (same issue with the flamer and the out if sight rule). GW needs to clean up the rules that are intended for non-vehicles (Torrent, Vector Strike, etc) but seem to get assigned to vehicles.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Erm, torrent came into existance on the Hellhound before it was even called torrent, so don't give me the 'not intended for vehicles' nonsense. I fail to see the issue with the baleflamer. Its a shooting attack, thus you must be able to see your target. You then place the template so that the small end is within line of sight and closer to you than the large end, and remove the shot as normal. Where is the confusion?

      Delete
    2. Tarrasq "you can always take a cover save against any attack" - that is not a 40K rule. Cover is agaings shooting only + exeptions.

      If an exeption is made then you get an FAQ about it. Like the Deathroller.

      So: Cover: Shooting.
      Vectorstrike: we dont know if shooting. Need FAQ.

      Delete
  10. I too eas wondering about flyers jinking VS.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Vector Strike does not say, Ignores Cover saves in it's description. Any weapon that does, says so. Unless we need some magical ink pen to make it appear on the page.

    Also, if you are getting terrorized by baleflamers and other doesn't allow cover saves vs it kind of things. Check out the Sky Shield Landing Pad. *Shielded entry.

    Bellumvinco

    ReplyDelete
  12. I would apply wound allocations starts with the closest model the vector striker encountered first during it's move. I would further use that direction of movement to determine cover. It doesn't pause drop in then pop up and fly away, the vector sriker sweeps through the unit. Come on folks. This isn't rocket science.

    Bellumvinco

    ReplyDelete
  13. Isn't a vector strike the model assaulting a unit as it flys by, since you can't use cover saves in assault and this is a model doing a "fly by assault "

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It counts as a shooting attack. How do you conclude it is a assault?

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
    2. Further more, you never gain base to base, which is assaulting. In no way shape or form is it a assault.

      Is this the new grounded, zombie vector debate?

      Come on GW! We know you cruise these sites. How long does it take to post a FAQ on the site? They are called hot fixes. Look it up!

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
    3. It doesn't count as a shooting attack, nothing in the Vector Strike rules say it counts as a shooting attack.

      Like many things it falls into a grey area between shooting and assaulting.

      Delete
    4. A model that made a Vector Strike in its Movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase.

      Come on, not shooting?

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
    5. However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that od the Vector Strike.

      There aren't any grey areas bud. There is moving, shooting and assaulting. Period. I have yet to see the grey area phase in the book.

      Not trying to argue, really, I'm not. But seeing aa it mentions shooting and firing and doesn't wisper a peep about assault...

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
    6. Whether vs is a shooting attack or not is irrelevant. To gain a cover save a model has to be at least 25% obscured. The problem with vs is it doesn't say from where the hits originate, either starting or ending point of the striking model. The only thing that sheds light is the fact that it hits a vehicles side armor, because the top is the same. So as I pointed out earlier, by the description of the ability and the mechanics given, yoh only get a cover save if you are in area terrain that provides it automatically, such as a forest. It is a shooting attack, but it is resolved like an ordinance template direct hit, meaning it is coming from above the model, not in front of it. Therefore no cover from an aegis line or wall. You do have the option to go to ground against it, giving you a 6+ sv in the open, and a 4+ sv in area terrain.

      FULOCRAPICO

      Delete
    7. Fly by assault is made up
      Its Not in the rules
      It has to be at I step in the assault Phase to ignore Cover... Not be somewhat like assault

      Delete
    8. Its done in the movement Phase & ist has to move over. So its more Logic that it is coming from the Top. But Saying aiges doesnt Give Cover is to much assuming. The Strike would be made while flying by so the Unit Could duck behind the Wall.
      If they are father away from the Wall i would rule no Cover.

      Delete
    9. i think the vector strike ability can be perfectly compared to dropping e.g. an ork flame bomb.

      It's done in the movement phase.
      It counts as having fired 1 weapon.
      It can still fire other weapons at different targets.
      It does not need a LOS. i think .. =)
      IT's special rules says that it ignores cover, so units normally get cover saves agaisnt it.

      Delete
    10. regarding walls:
      why would you standing behind a wall give you cover from something hitting you from the top of your head? you're behind an aegis defense line and i lob an egg over it. you now have an egg on your head, because the wall is not a ceiling, or it would be a ruin/building/forest aka area terrain.
      i'm inclined to side with getting cover from area terrain and not from walls of any sort just due to physics and common sense.

      Delete
    11. uh, common sense and physics are not viable arguments in warhammer =)

      and the way they describe cover and so, they want us to think cinematic ... The heldrake dashes trough the clouds onto a unit of crying guardsmen, they scream and yell and jump over the walls of their Aegis defense line, the tough Sergeant and his second in charge with the vox caster lean up against the wall. Hopefully the sharp, blood and gore dripping claws won't reach 'em.

      So, I'd say walls and so on count =)

      Delete
    12. I vote that it's an assault attack.

      Buoncane

      Delete
  14. Question.

    Wasn't it this time last month that we were getting in new info from the White Dwarf leaks? Why aren't we seeing anything for the next one now? My thirst for rumors remains unquenched!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Expect them this week. Hopefully by Tuesday.

      Delete
    2. Last month's White dwarf was a week early so that they could have the new chaos stuff on show at games day. Leaks always appear the week before release so we should see something this week.

      Delete
    3. Yes! Please! Distract me. Heh. Think I'm stressing over the vector strike + torent baleflamer. So good!

      I am having trouble invisioning codex creep after a codex full of ap 3 + no cover. Guess they really wanna sell a lot of Death Wing! Lol

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
  15. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hohoho!!
      Death??? Dont BuY his Books if you dont like them... But dont wish for someones Death Even as a joke! What if he really dies?

      Delete
    2. Over the line Warr Venom, by a long ways. No other warning for commenting will be given here.

      Delete
  16. I did not look but in the special rules doesnt Melee say all Melee attacks have the Ignore Cover special rule?

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    Replies
    1. No, I rather think it's along the tines of "cover saves can not be used on melee" ..

      Delete
    2. Yes. But as it happens in the movement phase people not having a daemon or chaos army argue its not melee.

      Problem: you cant shoot in the movement phase... so... its not a shooting attack ether.

      i say you can only take cover from shooting, not from DRAGONS LANDING in your crater and tearing your head... o well, i got carried.

      Delete
    3. of course you can shoot in the movement phase!

      Ork deffkopta
      Dark Eldar bomber
      Ork Burna bommer

      I think there are more ..

      Delete
    4. Ramming is also done in the movment Phase & you do get Cover.

      Delete
    5. Let me solve this one quickly. Just because it is in the shooting phase does not mean that it cannot get cover saves. What about Overwatch? That happens in the assault phase... and cover saves are allowed.

      Delete
    6. But overwatch is clearly statet as shooting - with guns; *peng*. Where VS is not.

      Delete
  17. I agree this book certainly is growing on me. Another insanely OP unit I have seen is the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut with axe and options. They are the ultimate challengers! and taking Huron also gives them infiltrate.. Scary!

    If you really look into the codex and work out some tactics for a lot of units, there are some very deadly things in there. I took a while but I am loving this codex now also. :)

    ReplyDelete
  18. Yes, you get cover saves against vector strikes. Applying the cover save is the same principle as firing at a unit that is obscured by another unit: the incoming attack isn't absorbed by the other unit but "This does not mean that intervening models literally stop the
    shots, but rather that they obscure the target and spoil the firer's aim." BRB, Pg18.

    This principle also applies to vector strikes as it is treated as a special form of ranged attack as implied by "A model that made a Vector Strike
    in its Movement phase counts as
    having already fired one weapon in its
    following Shooting phase." (BRB Pg43) an so a cover save against a vector strike can be seen as the target managing to scramble into over so that the swooping flier fails to damage them on it's low pass.

    A flier's jink save reflects the pilot's ability to dodge incoming attacks and I don't see how that doesn't apply to vector strikes either and to support that reasoning there are no rules stating that VS attacks ignore cover. It's not a template.

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  19. I'd say yes at the moment to cover saves though I see it more like the sweep attack from chariots, buzz over and lop heads these don't allow cover. So another one for the FaQ.

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  20. I agree the closest thing to vector strike is chariot sweep attacks and these ignore cover saves. I would play vector strikes the same way but only with my opponents agreement. The trouble with my argument is that sweep attacks specifically say that it ignores cover where as vector strikes don't. I just feel that the 2 types of attacks( vector strikes and sweep attacks) are basically the same thing and the rules for sweep attacks are less ambiguous.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I know the VS discussion is wildly uninteresting and turning into the 'zombie' brain eater.

    But, if a winged monstrous creature (A Daemon Prince) without a shooting weapon makes a vector strike it is obviously flying over the unit/vehicle and smacking it physically with something.

    When the rules say "COUNTS as having fired a weapon" do they not mean exactly that. It counts as having shot a weapon even though it's obvious it attacked with a close combat attack?

    Not to mention the strength of the attack is s7 which is a different strength than the bale flamer and autocannon.

    If it counts as a shooting attack and the only shooting weapon the vehicle has is a baleflamer/or autocannon then I can think of a few situations where I'd rather have d3+1 s6 ap3 soul blaze shots and then fire my torrent weapon at another unit rather than d3+1 s7 attacks.

    I can also think of reasons for saying, well if it's a shooting attack and it has an autocannon, it's s8 and instead of ap4 it's ap3 because the rule book says it's ap3 for VS. (Obviously neither is true - but that's how I see those who say it's a shooting attack's logic.) if it's a shooting attack then it ought to use the ranged weapons rules instead of an arbitrary s7.

    Not to mention the rule itself is called meteoric descent, and not meteoric bullets and fire attack.

    It is obvious GW have to FAQ the matter. But given the opaqueness of the rules I guess we have to give in to the Rule Book Bashing fundamentalist preachers until we have more facts... Just like in real life.

    ReplyDelete
  22. My two pence. We don't allow cover saves.
    I understand the 'counts as shooting' argument and much of the other stuff listed above, but we treat it as written. Flier moves, unit takes a bunch of hits... And that's it. For us, it's not a shooting attack or close combat attack or a ram or some such, the unit it moves over just takes hits. It's a rule in itself and until it's FAQed we'll play it that way.
    Kinda sucks cos I don't play with traitors, cowards and weaklings, the only Space Marine army that actually knows fear. (Sorry, fluffy bunny who hates Chaos).
    What I wanna know is, which models are removed first. The ones closest to it when it's finished it's move or the ones closest to it when it starts it's move.

    ReplyDelete
  23. The main problem is the attack is not defined as CC or firing so how can we really know. I would have said logic dictates you do get a cover save for being in area terrain (an FMC is gonna find it harder to slash at targets as it flies past if they are in amongst a wood or ruin). But that's just how we've been playing until we find the real answer because it seems to make sense.

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  24. A little late to the party but hopefully someone can still answer my question here. I'm having trouble finding in the books exactly how to place the template from the baleflamer. Its hull mounted so it has to be within 45 degree arc but does that mean the whole template or just the small end. It seems to me that since you cannot kill things out of line of sight that you are to place the entire template within the 45 degree arc. Am I missing something?

    ReplyDelete

 
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