Big question for the Chaos Space Marine codex: Can Plague Zombies come in groups bigger than 10? I have my opinion on it, and that is no, simply because unit sizes are listed under options in the unit entry. I know there are a lot of arguments either way, but now GW has listed Plague Zombies as a unit for an event, and while this does not in any way endorse a limit of 10, I think it provides a little more insight to this question.

Take a Look!!!


thanks to MrJudd77 for pointing this out.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2700145a_Night_of_the_Restless_Dead.pdf

175 Comments:

  1. Right there they clearly just post 10 zombies, so till an FAQ comes out, we are stuck at 10 it seems!

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    1. Why hasn't anyone noticed?

      That document limits units to ten zombies. BUT it also allows unlimited units of them!

      This document does nothing to help decide the intentions of the designers for Typhus' player zombies

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    2. Oops. Plague zombies

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    3. Hmm y do the zombies on that like have a lower ld because its an event read typhus's fluff entire ships full of zombies I.e. Big squads as always the week stick together

      to bad these guys dont have s 4 like the awsome ones in seige of vraks ahhh 50 man squuads of fearless zombies alough those one had mindless so wasent any good at holdding objectives but hey takes a long tome to walk through ruins with the objective in and a lot of turns holdding the objective while walking past it lol no rule stated they couldent hold use to be 4up save in the ruins and a 4up feel no pain nice although 5 up is better me thinks. More competative

      Ave dominus nox

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    4. Well, these also have slow and purposeful which the codex ones do not. Clearly not a great example of the Chaos Codex ones.

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    5. there are also 12 models in the pic they have under the stat block...

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  2. well off course those zombies are elite LOL
    well rules wise you are right off course, but those zombies don't make any sense taken in small numbers..

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    1. There is no reason you are limited to 10. the entry says you cannot upgrade them, that does not mean you cant increase the squad size. they simply cant take any equipment

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    2. There is every reason. "cannot purchase options" is the wording.

      More cultists is an option, It's listed right there under options.

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    3. I don't think they confusion about plague zombies comes from the wording around "Options". I think it comes from the wording on Typhus' Plague Zombie rule. "Any unit of Chaos Cultists in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies." The word nominated is an odd choice. It implies that the change to plague zombies in not part of army list creation at all, but instead something that takes place during the game or possibly the set up.
      The other odd wording is that fact that is specifies that any weapons are just there to be used as clubs. Either implying that if the nomination process is applied to a unit of cultists with weapons they can no longer user them, or just as likely a cop out on supplying cultist conversions without weapons.
      It's just a case of stupid wording, that needs to be cleared up. It really could go either way. But I'm still holding back from buying my Kings of war Zombie hoard boxes until it gets FAQ'd.

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    4. "The other odd wording is that fact that is specifies that any weapons are just there to be used as clubs. Either implying that if the nomination process is applied to a unit of cultists with weapons they can no longer user them, or just as likely a cop out on supplying cultist conversions without weapons."

      Since it is not possible to take cultists that don't have ranged weapons, the rule book needed to specify they couldn't shoot.

      I'm with you on holding back. I am ready to drop some coin for the Wayland combo of Zombies+Corporation for 80 models (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/mantic-games/warpath/the-corporation/z-corps/prod_18570.html), but sadly I can't justify it yet.

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    5. They didn't need to specify, the entry also says they count as armed with a single close combat weapon. Last I checked, those can't shoot.

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  3. You can use as many as you and your opponent agree to. The argument that you can only have 10 because of the scenario is a bit silly.

    It's a 45min scenario. Not the codex.

    Yes the codex says this and that but if it is causing you to double over in stomach churning angst that "IT SAYS THIS THING I DONT WANNA PLAY IT ANY OTHER WAY" I suggest you go play with other people. Try it in my local store and watch every one wind you up cos you have a major anger issue.

    Alternatively send a polite e-mail asking for a clarification from GW. The more people that send sensible and reasonable questions in the more chance that it will be in an FAQ and the greater chance that it would come out sooner.

    Anurien

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    1. Call the GW Hotline
      Play rules as wrighten
      Not as you think they should be
      Its 10
      Just think how OP 180 fnp Zombies would be???

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    2. I agree with the anon who posted this. The rules come down to what your opponent and you agree to. a max of 60 zombies seems kind of silly considering they're only t3 with fnp.

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    3. are 180 fearless, fnp zombies more OP than 180 fearless orks? The orks can run, fleet once a game, fire guns and aren't terrible in assault. Honestly, plague zombies aren't that bad. You deny their fnp with S6 or higher. There's loads of that in most armies, maybe even in template form.

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    4. While I'm all for playing house rules and fandexes, acting like its unreasonable to play the rule that's in the book is pretty condescending. Would it be unreasonable for me to put a unit of 5 chosen on juggernauts and say even though it isn't in the book, your opponent should get over it? Personally, I like the idea of playing loose with the book, but only in friendly games against people I know or who know I am experimenting with non-codex rules. I wouldn't expect someone at my FLGS to accept it outright.

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    5. bit of a differance Ian between that and the zombies. in this case it's RAW vs perceived RAI.

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    6. Oh pls
      Can someone just call GW?

      The rules are always what i does say

      Not what they "forgot" to say


      Dont you think if you Could have Zombie-apocalyps GW would have made it much more clear so you BuY a Ton of their figs? -.-

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    7. Umm, in the latest batch of FAQs, GW essentially rewrote certain rules. Look at the FMC "yo-yo" and Look Out, Sir. They have shown a new willingness to change what was written in favor of what was intended. In most cases, they only clarified odd wording to make it easier for idiots like those who push the "10 limit" to understand. You knew the intention with FMC, and you know the intention here, so stop whining. It's not like it's another Draigo.

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    8. @ Indigo jack: Yes. 180 fearless orks are in 6x 30 batches and once they suffer a few casualties, they lose their fearless (all da uvver boyz are ded, so dat means I'm next D: ) whereas the plague zombies are all FNP and don't lose it.
      On a tangent, I still find it super weird how 40k orks are much, much worse at shooting (BS2) than their fantasy counterparts (BS3), but have more access to ranged weapons.

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    9. Really?!? A 30 boy Ork squad only needs to lose a couple guys to lose their fearlessness?!? Since when is two thirds of a squad, or 20 boys a couple?

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    10. Feel no pain is nearly worthless on a t3 unit. Ask your friends who play dark eldar. It's still easy to shift. Consider that they get no armor save to almost everything and realise that this makes them a t3 5+ model. Even against bolters this goes down quick. It's cheap yes, it's a great choice. It's no where near OP, the ONLY thing it does is hold objectives, it just happens to be pretty good at that.

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  4. Of course you're supposed to have units of up to 35 zombies, it's in the spirit of the game and makes perfect sense. If anyone argues otherwise they just prove they're exactly the kind of people I'd never play with. Can we move on now?

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    1. so are fearless oblits and eternal warrior daemon princes in the spirit of the game, too?

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    2. Why is there no like button for your post, Davey? I've already asked my local gaming group and they said I could take units of 35. How many zombie films has anyone seen? Do you get small uncoordinated groups of zombies, or large shambling hordes?

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    3. I mostly agree with but it is often just easier to play with RAW. In my own small group it wouldn't be an issue, but at the local clubs I wouldn't even bother.

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    4. To the second anon. I sure hope an FAQ gives EW daemon princes and fearless oblits. It'd be very nice.

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    5. I asked my local GW Store manager. he said of course they didn't mean to limit it to 10, and until they say differently, any event at his store can take 35 of them.

      That's really the only person's opinion I care about.

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    6. @Davey
      You are kinda missing the point completely.
      If something is prohibited by RAW, it really doesn't matter how stupid you think it is or how badly you would like it to be otherwise.

      If you play with a friend in your home, then sure, house rule that you can have zombie mobs up to 100 or put a daemon prince on a pimped out attack bike, it really doesn't matter.

      But when you play against someone you don't know well in a shop, tournament, gaming club or somewhere else, the only thing you really have in common are the rules as written in the various rulebooks.

      If you don't want to follow the rules, that's fine, you just prove yourself to be the kind of cheater that I prefer not to play with...

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  5. Also can I point out - one of those zombies has a flamer - which under no interpretation should it have.
    And these are likely the average GW conversions we heard about a few weeks ago.

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    1. It has a flamer because it uses it as a club.

      It's a converted CCW.

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    2. I've seen the zombies from this picture before so I believe their old models.(weren't built anytime recently)

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    3. They're the conversions from the eye of terror campaign years ago.

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  6. Folks it is common sense. The reasoning behind the zombie unuts being limited to only 10 models is for balancing reasons. Otherwise, why would anyone ever play with anything else? You want the benefits of being a zombie, lose the numbers advantage non zombie cultists have. Just a case of folks trying to have their cake and eat it too.

    I suspect the folks trying to have cultist units of 35 are the same folks who miss interpreted and exploited the grounded flying montrous creature rules before the FAQ came out.

    Bellumvinco

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    1. What a load of crap. As it is written now it is NOT balanced. Its a completely useless ability. If you take zombies, they are still T3 and still only have a 6+ armor sv. They also get SNP and can't shoot. So how can you argue that a squad of 35 is overpowered? This is CLEARLY a miswording on Kelly's part.

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    2. Lol
      So its unbalanced that typhus makes them fnp & fearless for Free? Up to 60 Zombies in 1foc and 120 at 2k points?

      Go cry about smth els
      Nothing indicates they get options
      If they were ment to be Bigger Squads the Wording in the dex would be diffrent.

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    3. "If they were meant to be bigger..."
      The issue is, GW has an awful track record with their wordings.
      a unit of 10 t3 FnP guys with a 6+ armour save isn't anything threatening whatsoever.

      Plus consider the fact that not only do you lose the extra CC weapon that cultists have (or the shooting capabilities), you NEED the numbers.

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    4. The point is this. This arguement isn't about what the rules should be. It is about what the rule is! Mistake or not. If you want to play by the rules, at the moment you are forced to only use 10. Otherwise just start changing other things you dislike in the spirit of the game! Until GW gets their head out of their ass and stops this arguement by updating the csm FAQ. No one will use 35 model zombie squads vs me. If after the FAQ they CHANGE the rule, not clarify, CHANGE, I really can't care less. Play your gimmick zombie force.

      Bellumvinco

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    5. Lol you are all funny. PK has already stated it was a oversite and will be fixed to allow 35, just waiting on the FAQ. Some many rules lawyers are going to be looking foolish and I will enjoy it when they try to be all, well it should have been clear to start with. It's moot to complain until the FAQ comes out. PK has already said he messed up and it will get fixed, just a matter of time.

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    6. I love how that guy says CHANGE like he has any say in GW policy, what a joke!

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    7. "Why would anyone play with anything else?"
      Because I don't like zombies.
      I didn't buy Codex Zombies, I bought Codex Chaos Space Marines because I like Chaos Space Marines. I don't care what the most powerful units are, I'll build and use what looks coolest in my eyes - -and I like Shooting.

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    8. Where has Phill Kelly stated it was an oversite? If this is the case then it's pretty clear cut and there is not much need for this arguing. RAI sticks until its properly fixed in the FAQ. No one can say otherwise if PK has backed it up himself... unless of course they think they know better than the codex writer himself.

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    9. You rule lawyers want to get technical, ok. It at no point states WHEN you are limited to nominate a squad as zombies, so by technicality I can have a 35 man squad sit on an objective and wait. Then when you kill enough to bring them to 10, I can just say, "oh, I'm not taking a ld test because I am now nominating them as zombies and therefore they are fearless!" See how stupid rule lawyers sound?

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    10. Also, if you suffer a perils of the warp wound, your character can do a look out sir roll to pjt it on another model, by the wording in brb for los and wound allocation. Also necron night scythes that are wrecked will cause the units embarked to take wounds before going to reserve. I could go on and on. Some people need to get a life and stop ruining something that is supposed to be fun to play.

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    11. Why would anyone play different is silly. 35 dudes who's only purpose is to sit on an objective, who don't have an armor save (effectively, almost every gun has an ap something) they sit there with a 5+, YES, they get cover, however NO they can't go to ground. That's the trade off. They lose the ability to make the best use of ruins, to benefit from things such as the mark of nurgle, to take flamers or any other gun, the trade off is that they have a single ccw. Their only job, the only thing they are effective at, is standing next to a post and saying "This is my post, and you can't have it."

      With the versatility of both of the other troop choices (I'm including cultists, you can give them marks/flamers, it's not great, but it might fill a role for cheaper than the Marines you would take for that spot) Honestly the way I read it is you nominate before deployment, if you bought stuff for them before, they leave it on the bus. So you get as many bodies as you want, but they lose their guns as they now count as armed with a single ccw.

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  7. Replies
    1. No, this is teh internetz and we must have raging arguments...

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  8. I hope we get updates for Siege of Vraks, some interesting things in there.

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  9. I don't think there is any other way to interpret 'no options'. People can't always have what they want...

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  10. why is it that you americans only read the rules the way it will best benifit you lol

    this is really simple it doesnt even need an faq

    culitst come in units of 10 YOU HAVE AN OPTION TO TAKE MORE

    IF YOU TAKE TYPHUS AND TURN THESE INTO PLAGUE ZOMBIES

    YOU CANNOT TAKE OPTIONS

    NOW HERE IS THE TRICKY PART IF U CAN READ OPTIONS BELOW OPTIONS IT SAYS MORE CULTISTS

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    1. Yeah, stupid Americans! Oh wait, I'm one...so how about instead we all act like kind adults and don't lump an entire population into one half-informed generalization to fit the stereotype you have in your mind about a people. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to drink a 300 ounce sode and slam 3 triple Big Macs

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    2. How is this rule only going to effect players on 2 Continents? :P

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    3. Let me just say, it appears to be a mis-wording. GW write most rules as associated game mechanics. What kind of zombie horde would consist of 10 zombies?

      Oh, and I'm British. So please stop being racist and remember that RAW=/=RAI.

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    4. Look if Necron players have to accept that their squads in Nightscythes crash and burn then go into reserves, the CSM players just have to accept that for now zombies can only be taken in squads of 10.

      P.S.: I play both armies and am an American.

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    5. That comment is so american. lol.

      I think that 98% of you that are fighting over this aren´t and wasn´t ever going to play with zombies anyway, what ever the rule was.

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    6. Lol. Why can't Brits write clear, concise rules?

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    7. Why can't we Australians think of anything besides beer? :P

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    8. Did you know that on the internet, if you type in ALL CAPS it makes your opinion more valid?

      I certainly didn't know that until now...

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    9. Hey Warlock, hey... I'm drunk as I respond to these comments, and I'm American!

      MY OPINION IS VALID!

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  11. Angry comment that is based off of a logic-free opinion!!!!

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    1. Prejudiced and/or demeaning rebuttal with assumed socioeconomic conditions!

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    2. Remarks taken personally. Overly worded and unfortunately long winded counter-arguement that repeats only two points that don't even make sense. Follow with snide remark and overly-confident arrogant finish.

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    3. Expressed disappointment at lack of 'like' button.

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    4. Out of spite like all commenter’s that agree with personal opinion and unlike all dissenters.

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    5. obligatory "u mad" comment to original poster.

      standing by for long paragraph of how I have no life

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    6. Extended explanation about how all former posters have no life.

      Assumption of everyones motives, strawman, insult, flounce.

      P.S. Expression that you are all bad people I would not play.

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  12. Under Typhus: Plague Zombies re Chaos Cultists that have Fearless, FNP, Slow and Purp. special rules, and cannot purchase options. (to be certain, re-read those last three words).

    Chaos Cultists: May add up to twenty-five Chaos Cultists for 4 pts/model. (where is this part found? Under options :P)

    So I'd say NO. Do I agree that they should be limited to 10. Nope, but that's the way it is. You can cross your fingers that GW releases and FAQ to change this.

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  13. 35 cultists getting a free zombie upgrade would be a bit op. if you had to pay 1 point pet cultist or something I could see you getting more than 10, but as it stands I'd say max squad size is 10

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    1. Ah yes, clearly OP. You lose the shooting attack, any flamers you might want to include, the extra attack in close combat, get slow and purposeful, and have to take a 230 point character to unlock it.
      No, I don't think it's unbalanced.

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    2. Just drop some pie plates on those zombies like the movies. Also they cant do anything to vehicles.

      Necron tesla destructors eat zombies alive. Trust me. I know.

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    3. Where you allowing 10 or 35 JayDee?

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    4. It was a friendly scenario. Hordes of zombies. No typhus. It was a campaign my LGS was doing. We had it where if you did take typhus, his init could have 50 zombies

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    5. t3 5+ isn't OP. their only job is objective holding, and with 10, they're not even that good at it, they can't go to ground either remember fearless is a double edged sword for them.

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  14. Can't have options, more cultists is an option. It is listed right there under tho word 'options'. "But that's not what I want!" Isn't a counter argument.

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    1. True, but since you can buy the cultist with options and THEN "nominate" them to be cultists is perfectly legal. For every valid and well explained argument there is another completly valid and legitimate argument that disagrees.This is known as the "wait for the FAQ because until then there is no correct answer"

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  15. Is it really that big a deal? I get the whole spirit of the horde of zombies thing, but can't you just take 3 squads of 10 to make your mob? They will faq it eventually and this will blow over.

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    1. 6 troops slots is plenty, especially since you can take huge squads of chaos sms, and at 2000+ you get a whole new FOC.

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    2. It's the extra points it costs, really. For those who want to take 140 zombies in four blocks of 35, it makes quite a bit of difference, as that would cost 700 points separated out, and only 450 as blocks of 35. 250 pts is a BIG difference, my friend. Honestly, I'll never do that cause I don't like Typhus (Yes, I know, heresy), but I understand where the others are coming from.

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    3. You've been watching too many debates my friend.

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  16. Some folks day dream about a certain thing. Then read the rules trying to twist it's meaning to fit their day dream. Try reading the rules without expectations, then day dream.

    This just in; only Americans misread rules. Lololololololololol.

    Bellumvinco ( American)

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  17. I am looking at these comments and I am wondering were some of you are getting your info.

    In the version linked it says they are a troop choice and you can take as many 'units' of zombies as you like.

    But in the blocked off area were it describes the unit it says the unit size is ten and there are no otions to upgrade in the least. If you spend a 100 points you can have 20 zombies but in two units not one.

    Check the download again and see if it has been updated becuase I don't get were players are saying they are elite and they can be upgraded in any way.

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  18. Speaking of zombies....

    Anyone watch the walking dead yesterday :D

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    1. Hells yes! Was very good. Seems they got a bump in budget. Back to being a lot of zombies on screen again. I said to my wife, why is the doc going with them, he wasn't a part of the assault squad ealier. Why now? Oh, hahahaha.

      Bellumvinco

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    2. Yes its like my fav show, crazy thing was there was more than 60 zombies.....wonder if it was apocolypse....trolling over.

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  19. I'm glad this is the case so all you band wagon pretender guys who never liked typhus or Chaos to begin with will go and get off of the chaos band wagon and go back to your other armies you gus jumped on when they were hot .Leave Typhus alone to the real players of Death Guard.

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  20. I've got to say that that document is worrying. If they're limiting it to 10, then that means the FAQ may well limit it to 10. For the moment, because of it's relative ambiguity, I field as many as my opponent will let me (which is 35). If an FAQ drops limiting it to 10, I'll end up waiting a further 10 years to finally using my 100 Zombie models, as they are definitely not worth it in squads of 10. T3 with 6+ armour, even with FNP, is weak as shit.

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    1. the wording is pretty unambigious right now, if they FAQ it and leave it alone I'd say that's evidance that 10 is indeed the limit.

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    2. Well it's obviously not unambiguous otherwise there wouldn't be this whole debate ;)

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  21. Ok, I'm not a chaos player, but I can see both sides to the arguement. I'll throw my 2 cents in. If you look at the Apocalypse Datasheet for the Plague of Zombies, the formations are 10-30 per squad, BUT they do have different rules and stats versus the current plague zombies in the new Codex. I see it currently as the unit is 10 (RAW), and unless they change that in the next FAQ, you'll have to work around the restriction. Apocalypse is meant to have bigger hoards, so the 10-30 there makes sense for that formation, and 10 straight up makes sense for the current Codex games.

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  22. Gw wants it to be 10, otherwise players will just buy Mantic zombie hordes for cheap (relatively) instead of their kits.

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    1. Some people will. Other people will want to convert their zombies to look like they come from the 40k universe. This means that some people will actually get some gw kits for bits if nothing else.

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  23. For starters this is for a Special Halloween tournament. If this had any bearing on the Chaos codex I better go back and dig out those special one night only rules that surfaced for Cypher.

    Second its a 500 point tournament. How would taking mobs of 35 plague zombies be fun and fair? Not to mention any army can take those 10 zombies for 50 points.

    Its meant to be fun for a Special Event, not to shine any light on the conundrum of wither or not you can increase the size of zombie cultists.

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    1. Yay, I found the logic! This is what I was thinking as well.

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  24. Guys. The rules come down to what you and your opponent agree to. GW makes minis, then writes rules for them. Not the other way around. This means many rules they make are bad, over the top, unbalanced, weak, etc.

    In the end it comes down to what you are comfortable with, and what your opponent is comfortable with. The game is about having fun; not strictly adhering to rules.

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  25. Rules as written, there is no question in my mind that it's limited to 10. It's in black and white.

    Going off of a discussion from DakkaDakka, one member indicated that they spoke with Phil Kelly who said it was an oversight and would be FAQ'd. One poster said he called GW and spoke with someone who said that they believed it wouldn't be. Heresay, he said/he said, but if the one person DID speak with PK, it could mean an FAQ is on the horizon.

    If GW is having an event, of course they are running with the rules as is. There have been no FAQs and the event will follow the established rules. Again, RAW, zombies are limited to groups of 10.

    Having played a game where I ran 35 zombies (my play group agrees that it's an oversight), I can tell you that almost anyone who's saying it's OP hasn't played Zombies, hasn't played against them, and are looking at the whole picture with blinders on.

    Almost every gun out there is at least AP5. That removes the armor save. Any S6 gun removes FNP. Zombies can only move 6" a turn and can't run in the shooting phase. So either they sit on an objective and get shot up before getting assaulted without the ability to overwatch or they move up and get shot at as they move.

    Templates and blasts are the bane of zombies, as it should be. With a unit of 10, even spread out, they are going to fall to a round or two of fire.

    Small picture thinkers are going to look at it and say "fearless and FNP in a unit of 35 is OP". These people have no idea what OP actually is. They fail to look at the big picture.

    A mass of 210 Zombies is certainly intimidating to look at it, but it's not hard to get rid of. The cost of Typhus, along with the lack of shooting isn't all that much of an advantage.

    When it comes to tarpit units, a unit of 35 zombies is one of the best. A unit of 10 isn't. Wyches, gants, and Ork Boyz all have a similar cost, can take dedicated transports, and can shoot/defend themselves.

    Typhus' ability to make zombies is great, but not if it's a limit of 10 troops.

    You also run into the argument of what comes first, the purchase of the units or the nomination of the units. But that's for another lengthy debate.

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    1. The what comes 1st argument is BS... Its like Saying "my SM Captain can Take Terminator armour Before or After i Give him xyz"

      35 alone is Not op
      But if you max Out on Zombies maybe Add additional Units like Spawns nurgelmarines Ect. You have the Most Hardcore hord Army in the Game. Its impossibale to kill a 2foc 210 Zombies + IG or ork Allys in a Signal game. All you have to do is spread ou and wait.
      Its Not about what some Kid will do!
      Its about what cheesy Proplayer can do.

      Most Army have a Hard time killing 90 Orks. Its really Hard to kill blob IG.
      Stop Saying 200 smth Zombies is fair

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    2. Your "Theoryhammer" is trumpt by actual game playing. I've seen your so called cheesy Proplayer put together the zombie horde in a 1500 pt list to try and show how broke it was, guess what turn 3 he had less than 20 zombies left on the board. Good shooting phases, sure, bad movement, sure, either way they are not dangerous as you think and we play terrain heavy games. A single 10 man squad of vanilla marines can wipe out a 35 man zombie horde completly if used properly.
      I feel sorry for any horde that gets in the way of a full squad of dire avengers especially if they use their Bladestorm(The extra shot power).

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  26. When you look at the latest FAQ's you will notice that clarifications always goes to the way the rules were meant to be not the way "as written". You'll see after CSM FAQ see day light. You really should stop analyze 40k rules like MTG rules.

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    1. What about warptime, which for years allowed you to reroll any dice, but then randomly last year switched to all dice? The FAQ is always the way the rules were meant to be, that's the whole point. Frequently that is done by issuing an Errata for the wording, which means that until the FAQ, the rule meant something else. If the rule meant what it read, it wouldn't be FAQ'ed

      Delete
  27. They tell you to refer to the actual page. I'd assume when they say options is WEAPON options meaning no shot guns and flamers and stubbers or any guns of any kind. The trade off is, you no longer have range, or speed when you gain Slow and Purposeful. I can only assume you can still gain up to 25 more guys. That is a threat, as has been pointed out. 10 t3 6+ FNP dudes slogging across the field wouldn't even be considered a threat in today's 40k. It's 35 guys. Just use some judgment now and then.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Also, here's a thought. Anyone considered fluff and flavor? If you read the Typhus entry and some of the other things they depict him doing later in the book the zombie Apocalypse is truly upon us. They speak of entire systems (billions of lives) succumbing to this zombie plague. Where Typhus walks, so do the plague dead. 10 dudes (60 if you fill you entire troops choices w/ this option) doesn't scream zombie Apocalypse to me. Now, 2 units of 35 (easily killable these days) zombies who can't shoot, run, loose an attack, can be liquidated by S6 weapons (which are all over the place), and cost 230pts just to even show up on the board. Sound more like a zombie apocalypse to me!!

    Space Marines and pretty much ever army I face are going to be tearing these dudes up. The only thing they have going for them is numbers and the fact they they ain't running for shit. I'll buy THAT.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, ok.

      Aspiring Sorcerers shouldn't be ML 1.

      The fluff says they're the best.

      So I'll use my sorcs as ML: 3 and take Divination. Thanks!

      Delete
  29. For the record, I would happily play a game against an army with bricks of 35 zombies as a pickup at the shop or whatever. But in tournaments there's swag on the line, ya know?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And you can't handle fearless objective holders? Especially toughness 3 objective holders? You're not making a balanced list, and you should pay for it.

      Delete
  30. Does anybody know WHEN Cultists get nominated as Zombies? I don't see that little nugget RAW anywhere. So fine, I just won't nominate them at the beginning of the game. I'll wait until they are in a combat with a BA unit, and then magically nominate them as Zombies when I have failed my armor tests or need to take Leadership.

    RAW?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To right. It just states that any squad of cultists can be upgraded. It doesn't say when. Get 35 and don't tool them up. If your having a friendly game does it matter? Really?

      Delete
  31. In my many posts above this one I failed to answer the question of the post and just jumped into a 4 day old infant waking me up every hour and half last night induced fatigue rage.

    Not a difinitive answer, just fun. A difinitive answer will only come in the form of a over-due FAQ.

    Bellumvinco

    ReplyDelete
  32. I stopped reading the comments 1/4 the way down. All this anger and arguing is really nonesense over wording.

    Why can't everyone just enjoy the hobby and not abuse each other over words?

    I'm sure this will be a "Frequently Asked Question" so Games Workshop will have to release a FAQ for the Chaos Space Marines.

    Until then, stick by the letter of the law when playing against nasty people who don't want to have fun they just want to win. But talk to your friends in a dignified and reasonable manner and come to a mutually agreeable conclusion.

    Fair compromise: "I don't think you can have more than 10 but rather than be a moron who might be proved wrong by an FAQ how about I let you take units up to 20?"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are people who play for fun. And people who think winning is the only way to have fun. Unfortunately this is one of those things people want to abuse, and since they are being countered they are raging.

      Now me personally i think zombies usually numbering in the 35ish range

      Make of this what you will...

      Delete
    2. I agree sir!

      110%
      In fact, I would gladly see zombie units up to 50 if only it were allowed.

      But 35 is good for me!

      Delete
    3. Its not like the zombies have Mark of Nurgle and Epidimius can buff them. When people think of zombies they think of hordes. IDK I just hope they clarify this soon so that we can all get on with our hobby and find the next new thing to bitch and argue over.

      Delete
    4. I think the fun vs winning thing is so funny. Why can't I want to play by the rules and have fun? I'm not worried about losing to mobs of 35 zombies. I'm worried about the wording of rules being stretched and twisted to mean whatever we want to suite how we think they should be. I only want the game to be played as it is written. I celebrate my opponents victories with high fives and normally just a hand shake when I win. You are all liars if you try to pretend you don't like winning for the sake of your arguement.

      I see no difference in this debate and the one over tournements changing the rules. To me they are one and the same.

      If I am wrong about it, fine. I don't have a problem with units of 35, I don't have a problem with being wrong. I only have a problem with folks that appear to be trying to exploit the wording of a rule.

      It is also my opinion that a little debate over this and that untimately ends up being a healthy thing, but only if all parties are mature. Until GW deems it worthy enough to FAQ this, the topic will continue to pop up.

      If I'm wrong, congratualtions guys! Have fun! High Five. That squad looks so awesome! If I'm right, big deal, good thing you didn't paint more than you needed. Sorry...theres always 7th edition, Hive Five, lets have some fun. Until this gets FAQed my CSM loving friend has desided to just stay away from it. Knowing it won't be long.

      Bellumvinco

      Delete
    5. I personally think it should be nominated at deployment, when isn't specified. Honestly I don't care that much, I have Night Lords. If I were going to use Zombies, I would use them as Zombies, and just talk to my opponent beforehand, if he had an issue with the 35 blocks I would just run them as cultists for that round. 35 cultists is still hard to budge as well...

      Delete
  33. RAI > RAW

    It's as simple as that. If you are really going to be a stickler about something like this, then you are playing this game for all the wrong reasons.

    ReplyDelete
  34. It is clearly RAI vs RAW....just people are being silly with the 10 unit limits...

    Fine, I buy a Cultist unit with 30 figures, THEN I declare them Plague Zombies, no where in the rules does it state when I have to declare and that I can't do this. Problem solved. End topic and move on. It's a game boys and girls, not the Supreme Court! *sigh*

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 10 zombie limit is RAW and RAI. It really isn't ambiguous.

      Delete
    2. Wrong. Look at page 95 of the dex. The only option you "purchase " is mark of -. Everything else under options is "add" , "replace ", or "take". So there you have it. You may nominate any sized weapon equipped cultist unit to zombies as long as you don't "purchase" options.

      Delete
  35. I don't know what all the fuss is about. If you can take multiple zombie cultist units it is as good as running 1 unit of 30. You run them all together and charge or defend together. Statistically the 3 units have a better chance of survival than 1. However if you can only nominate 1 unit and that is 10. That is pony but typhus is a beast in himself and makes some guys a little more survivable sitting on a home objective. Try paying 240 points for Ragnar or 275 points for Logan.

    ReplyDelete
  36. lol people being people

    ReplyDelete
  37. 35= 280 Zombies at 2k 2foc
    420 wounds to kill all Zombies avarage
    84 wounds a Turn
    Wich Army can do that many wounds?
    At 4+ to Hit 4+ to wound
    Thats 336 attacks you have to put Out Each Turn
    Thats 84 Orks on the Charge
    Possible for some Armys
    Most cant do it
    Most cant do ist every Turn

    Its OP
    280 Zombies is only 1400 points
    Enough left for spawns and other Fun stuff
    Or for ork Allys

    Auto Win

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. At 2FoC you could bring 360 Ork boyz. Getting 84+ charging shouldn't be hard.

      Delete
    2. Yet as it is now, they are not worth taking at all over regular cultists, who do not need any special HQ in addition to become available. There is a reason why players are getting this up tight about it (especially DG players), and I do not blame them. I don't think anyone who works for GW has ever seen a zombie flick if these are the rules they intended...

      Delete
    3. Auto win? Don't play much, huh?

      Delete
    4. Id take 18 flyers and trolololo those cultists with massed tesla and death ray shots!

      Delete
    5. The obvious counter to that is: How many high strength templates can a Guard army bring at 2000 points? How many high strength shots can a tau or cron player bring at 2000 points? How much cheese can Draigo bring at 2000 points? The answer is a lot. Your 'OP' zombies will crawl up the field, receiving fire without the ability to respond until they assault, where they have the attack profile of a guardsman and only a slightly better save.

      Honestly, bring your zombies, I want to see it on the field, I think it'll be cool and flavorful, but not OP.

      Delete
  38. lol, oh so now we're solving rules debates using our own GW as an example?

    Sounds good, now let me just use Doombolt three times in a row with Ahriman

    Hey, you can't say anything.

    GW does it so it must be correct.

    ReplyDelete
  39. The entire argument is stupid! Are you really so stupid as to say that, because the entry for Typhus says he must generate all of his powers from the "Nurgle discipline", that he gets NO powers because on page 71 it says "Discipline of Nurgle"?
    Stop being little pussies, and let the rule stand as you know it means. You've dealt with Gay Knights, Necrons, and Space Wolves, you will figure out a way to defeat the zombies, too.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of, I would be delighted to see a maxed cultist army facing me. 4 basilisks would mulch them in about 2 turns. Butthat doesn't make it a legal list.

      Delete
    2. Yes. Ive very much wanted to use my Death Korps mass artillery on these zombies.

      Oh whats that? FNP? Ha!

      Delete
  40. well zombie suck... send in a lone sentinel in cc and tey're locked the whole game!!!! theirmain role is cannon fodder , bbut even as such are not great at all because being slow cannot run and so slow other units tehy have to cover. also orks cost little more are better and can be taken to 30
    IMHO it will be faqed , it is a typo obviously

    ReplyDelete
  41. Remember also that u can screen said zombie units which provide a 5+ followed by possible night fight in almost every game and yes u do Hav a pretty resilient base to win games.

    ReplyDelete
  42. What I don't get is why everyone cares weather it 10 or 35 zombies are not a game changing unit. Also aren't obliterators and mutilators fearless as they are deamons.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No. Daemons just have fear....

      And would it kill you to look this up yourself? :P

      Delete
    2. Sorry JayDee

      Delete
  43. I posted this earlier and decided to repost here. Under options for cultists the ONLY one you "purchase " is marks. Everything else is "add", "exchange ", or "take". So there you have it. All you RAW nazi's have nothing to dispute because it Clearly states under typhus entry that zombies can't "purchase " options. It does NOT say they can't ADD REPLACE or EXCHANGE options. So now everyone can be happy. We have our 35 man zombie units, and you have it written in the grand book of RAW! :P

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't have the book handy, but if this anon is right I'm going to shit myself laughing.

      Delete
    2. I assure you I am correct. It is how its written in the dex. Hope you're wearing a diaper! Lol!

      Delete
    3. You know that not being able to take ANY OPTIONS is the same as not being able to EXCHANGE/ADD OPTIONS right?

      Delete
    4. It doesn't say take any options, it says PURCHASE options. So its not the same from a RAW perspective. You can't have it both ways jay.

      Delete
    5. Umm would you agree that takin cultists counts as am option?

      And take and purchase are just two roads to the same party. This is a pointless argument on your part.

      Delete
    6. Im not taking sides. Hut judgimg from the current wording id say no options of ANY type.

      But i would not enforce that aginst any opponent. Zombies are cool. WH40k is cool. Therefore im cool with mass zombies in warhammer.

      Delete
    7. Page 95 of dex under options : "may ADD up to 25 chaos cultists 4 pts/model
      "The unit may PURCHASE one of the following marks of chaos..."

      Delete
    8. The 10 zombie limit is a pointless argument. But since common sense does not affect the opinion of rule lawyers and the almighty technicality of RAW it does matter. As it is written the ONLY purchasable option under cultists are marks of chaos. You either follow raw or you don't. You cant simultaneously argue RAI and RAW in this particular subject.

      Delete
    9. You know what a purchase is right? You pay ti get something

      May take up to 25 additional cultists for 4 points....

      Therefore you are PURCHASING more cultists for 4points.

      Delete
    10. Well, if you can find an entry in the brb or dex that specifically defines it as such, then yes. Otherwise your INTERPRETATION has no bearing on what is actually written.

      Delete
    11. I find it hilarious that you are completely missing my point in all this. Reading the rule for typhus its easy to see that he meant for there to be zombie hordes that cannot have guns or marks of chaos. A synonym for options would be upgrades and nobody would consider squad number an upgrade. Instead we think weapons, powers and such. But since the raw nazis are pushing the envelope on RAW technicality, so am I. The point being that its ridiculous either way.

      Delete
    12. And purchase is the same as add is an RAI opinion, not RAW.

      Delete
    13. Well actually i see what you were saying jay. And u think you may be right. Sorry :P

      Delete
    14. ^ That's a sorry way to get the last word jay.

      Delete
    15. Try and play this way in a GW hobby store against staff or with staff watching if you think you know best. Try to record it also, I'd love to see the outcome. :P

      Delete
    16. I support the Purchase lawyering based on the fact that it even specifies that any guns they have are just used for clubbing as well.

      So there you have it, they even accounted for you exchanging your weapons for flamers and then turning into zombies so they don't work.

      My actual point is the whole discussion is dumb, and anyone who doesn't want it because it's OP is just not looking at things clearly. Anyone who wouldn't play in a tournament is very picky about something that really doesn't change one way or the other how the game will turn out most likely. If someone has 35 bodies and you don't ignore cover, you're going to have a bad time of it. I don't care if it's 4+ with feel no pain, or a 3+ from going to ground, the result is almost the same. The problem is that there are so many levels that you can take it to with RAW or RAI. That's why the purchased trolling is hilarious.

      Seriously, people who wouldn't ever let someone take more than 10, calm down, they're not as good as the other stuff that's out there anyways. People who hate players because they won't let them, you also need to calm down, you can still have cultists, so just treat them as Zombies with some nasty halitosis or something I don't know.

      But really guys. In a tournament setting or not, this is honestly such a small thing as to not even matter.

      Delete
  44. Sorry if anyone was ticked off about this, I have only passed info to Natkfa that I found through the GW facebook page. I would think that the writers intentions have been made well clear by the limit of 10 zombies per squad. That being said I also agree that individual rule changes agreed upon between players prior to a battle help with the 'story' telling that GW is trying to get into their games now. I know personally that I have enjoyed many games using my Ultramarines taken as 1st company (no fast attack, elites as troops) which basically throws the FOC out the window. But both myself and my friends that I have played against have really enjoyed the games. So if you want to take 180 zombies, go right ahead, just make sure you both agree before the game.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Considering there are multiple reports of people who heard phil kelly talk about 35 man squads at games day, it is not clear. Secondly, lets break down this supposedlg OP zombie ability. You are trading the ability to shoot and to run for fearless and FNP. It is still a t3 6+ model that will die insanely fast if you put it out in the open. People are complaining that they will fight 210 zombies if its allowed. Now lets look at what option we do have. 6 35 man cultists with 33 autoguns and 3 heavy stubbers each will cost 1188 points. That's 210 models shooting 54 shots at 36",246 shots at 24", and 450 shots at 12". And that is with a single FOC. Throw in a couple dark apostles and some heavy support and this will be a brutal army. Do a double foc and it gets more ridiculous. So how are foot sloging zombies that have to reacb you before they do anything over powered? Get real. You stand a better chance against the zombies. The supposed limit of 10 is total crap.

      Delete
    2. Sorry, I accidentally added 6 auto guns in that equation.

      Delete
    3. Oh, Phil Kelly was talking about stuff eh?

      You mean like how Thousand Sons sorcerers can take Gift of Mutation when they can't be affected by mutation anymore?

      Ah, that Phil Kelly.

      Sure, take 35 zombies. GW is always right.

      Delete
    4. Nothing says you have to use it on the sorcerers. Use a multidimensional list and you will not have as many fluff issues ;)

      I know it sounds crazy, but you could take a Tzeentch Chaos lord :D

      Delete
  45. As written, I agree with the assessment of "no groups over 10". However, I honestly don't see that list being OP. Last I checked the stats of cultist, they are fodder. Of particular note for the zombie cultists is that they have a strength of 3. So, if someone drops all their points into these zombies at a theoretical 35 models per squad, they have an 1100 point sink that can't do anything if the other player is in transports. 3 STR can't even crack a DEldar vehicle. The only thing that they could possible be good for is holding objectives. However, ordinance and even any regular old shooting will quickly start clearing them off the board.

    ReplyDelete

  46. The codex also says " any guns are used strictly"... implying that you may have many kind of guns. Else it could be written " Laspistols" instead of " guns"

    Also, marks are the only options that do something, so...
    Note however that the cultist champion can ste ll become a demon lord with a mutation!!! great LOL

    OFF Topic, you should consider having epidemius ally , and kill your own zombies with Thyphus ability, so to bolster plague marines.
    otherwise zombie list suck. they cannot harm vehicles, not even transports, and MC...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @derreavatar
      unless I'm mistaken regular cultists (w/o FNP) will work much better as sacrifice to up the tally O_o.
      With 6th ed being a very shooty game for me so far the loss of guns doesn't seem worth upgrading to zombies. Unless you've specifically included them to sit on a remote objective and hope no one nukes them. I'd much rather have cultists that can unleash a hail of gunfire before they get swept away

      Delete
    2. well cultists can go to ground, zombie scannot and such they suck at keeping distant objectives;
      morover i was suggesting using them instead of cultists with thyphus because they are a bit more resilient to dakka, and you have to be in melee to activate Thyphus ability;with vanilla cultists you risk to have them all wiped out before charging.. but anyway this gimmick tactic sucks anyway. However an epidemius ally is good, points wise i'ts not too espensive, i'l give it a try

      Also, pavane of slaneesh is now the poor's man lash of submission.. well chaos has lost a great psy+chic power now ; but in 6th even being able to move heavy weapons and IC on the front can be effective. And you don't have psychic defenses aganist it. well we'll see if it does something or it is crap.

      Delete
  47. Well, if they can indeed purchase options, such as "up to twenty-five Chaos Cultists" then I want to give all my Plague Zombies the Mark of Nurgle...
    Typhus' entry states that Chaos Cultists cannot purchase options, and in case any one wants to know what is meant by "options", refer to page pg. 95 which shows how a unit entry works, even using Chaos Cultists as the example.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I would put money on this going in favour of the 35 zombie limit. PK has taken enough flak from this codex already for it not to. I like PK as a codex writer but I pray for his sake, this is just a goof on his part that will be fixed in the next FAQ... and after all this nonsense, it could not come soon enough!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Of course GW tries to balance their units…however, sometimes they just don’t do that very well.

    10 Zombies is not going to be very effective. But 35 FnP, Fearless, scoring zombies could be considered OP. We just don’t know the intent. Maybe they meant it to be 10. I doubt it, but it is a possibility, and all it leads to for us players is arguments on whats OP, UP, and balanced.

    We have to look at what is written.

    I also want to make sure that everyone realizes that we don’t like this ruling. We want zombie hordes as badly as the next. I’d wager I want them more than most. But we don’t get to bend the words to argue for the ruling we want.

    It is also worth noting that just saying “Weapon Options” is insufficient as well. Slaanesh marked zombies? I don’t think so.
    The FAQ should say:
    “Cultists units nominated as zombies may not take any options listed, however, they may still take additional models at the cost of +4 per model”.

    That would make it clear that you get no options but models, and by designating the points cost you clear up the argument that you “nominate” them at the deployment, or mid game, or whenever.

    ReplyDelete
  50. We could go on endlessly flinging casually worded statements that border on insults, or look at the situation coldly

    RAW: zombie numbers limited to 10
    Some people think this is an error. GW is well known for errors ( anyone remember when terminators couldn't wear terminator armour if RAW was followed?)
    Some think it's not an error, but deliberate
    -In the meantime, some have houseruled a higher max
    -there's anecdotal evidence GW stores have allowed 35
    -some players think a higher max is overpowered

    The main rulebook itself emphasises the "story telling" side of play, which makes houserules well within the core rules.
    Tournament games, and other settings where strangers play, require a consistant RAW approach to avoid... well I was going to say "chaos" :)

    In short, until GW FAQ's this, in friendly games, play what you both agree to, and expect to be stuck with 10 as the limit in tourneys

    That or just play as Tau! :)

    Hownowbrowntau
    GW hasn't ruled yet
    In the meanrime, some have tried playing with larger numbers.

    ReplyDelete
  51. I'm going to chime, knowing that it isn't going to matter.

    If you look at the rules for this character as a whole, the option to take plague zombies is about them fighting with clubs and claws. The idea is about not taking wargear options because they can't use them.

    The rule is not ambiguous. It's pretty straight forward. What it is is somewhat contradictory and self defeating. Historically, unit composition has never been an option the same way that wargear has been an option. In trying to change the format of this rules, it appears that this particular item has fallen through the cracks. It could even be speculated that this rule was made prior to unit comp moving into unit options.

    As others have said, decide amongst your players until GW FAQ's this. But please stop arguing over something so unimportant.

    And just to clarify: I don't play Nurgle, I don't use Cultists in my current army, and I never use Special Characters (I think their beardy). So I really have nothing to gain from this. I'm just chiming in using my background in rule and policy development.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I speak with Phill kelly at the last Italian Games Day. He says that the zombies can be 10 or more, it was just a printing error in the rules and soon a faq will be out

    ReplyDelete
  53. the answer is obvious, you can take more than 10 because GW hope they will make big money selling large numbers of cultists. So obviously they will want people to take units of up to 35.

    ReplyDelete
  54. As the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Lacedæmonia erupted, Athens in its height and glory was suddenly struck by a devastating plague. With the sudden great loss of life, the City was gripped by fear and panic. Social order collapsed while candidates with vision and competence vanished, leading to the eventual fall of the Hellenic model of glory.

    www.evitalhealth.com

    ReplyDelete

 
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