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Presence of Faeit: Chaos Marine Codex, and Conversion Beamers


With the Chaos Space Marine codex in hand now, a lot of us have spent a lot of time digesting the new book. There are just tons of options and just like you expect for Chaos Space Marines, they can get quite expensive. So just how you put together your lists for this codex are extremely variable, with something for just about everyone.

Presence of Faeit is my weekly editorial. I generally report during the week what is going on, and today is my day to comment on what exactly it is that I am thinking of.



Chaos Marine Codex:
I have spent quite a bit of time with the codex and even got the first game in against Chaos Space Marines. I wont get quite into how that game went, but I will tell you that it was very one sided.

My first impressions of this new book, are that Chaos Space Marines are not a point and click army. Meaning that there are not obvious units that stand out so far above the above the others, that you will see them in most lists. In contrast I see Grey Knights as a point and click army. Chaos Space Marines on the other hand will take some skill to build a list and field it on the tabletop.

So yes, it is a strong codex. If you are still thinking otherwise at this point, take another look at it. There are lots of powerful options for strong units, spammed units, and much much more. Lets take a look at a few of the things that are currently standing out for me.

Havocs:
Just wow, cheaper in so many ways. One unit of havocs with 4 autocannons is only sitting at 115pts now. That is some serious heavy weapon firepower for an extremely cheap rate. Not only this, but the unit is still very flexible in the fact that you can load it up with plasma guns, missile launchers (with flakk options), lascannons, meltas, etc. Havocs should very much be a staple in many armies now.

Daemon Weapons: 
Love em. Wish there was just a simple entry though for them without having to take a unique version of them. Or at least maybe a few more of them so that we do not have every Chaos Marine army fielding the same ones. A Chaos Lord with a Daemon weapon is a powerful thing, I just feel that something is lacking here.

Noise Marines
Slaanesh must be just giddy now with the power of sonic weaponry. Nothing is more annoying than xenos armies or IG that are cowering in their cover, and now we have the single unit that dig them out in mass. Even the Blast Master now can ignore cover with its long range S8 small blasts. The point costs for sonic blasters is not that steep either and with an icon of excess, feel no pain is now your ally. Oh yea, and every unit's aspiring champion can take a doom siren.... just enough said.

Forgefiends
A single vehicle that can deliver 8 shots at S8 is just a beast to deal with. The only issue really comes down to it being target number one in games because of its large size. For 175pts and two Hades Autocannons, there just is not too many vehicles in the game that can throw down that many shots at S8.


Conversion Beamers
6th edition has brought one thing to 40k. That is that the strength of the entire blast template, both large and small are now at full strength. So welcome back to the world of the conversion beamer, which is a weapon that I did not truly like in 5th edition, but is now finding its way back into my lists under 6th.

In fact, I cannot even start to tell you what my two conversion beamers blew up last night, because they were on fire. The long range aspects of a conversion beamer sit just about right for the lack of long range firepower that Grey Knights lack. Not to mention that they are available under a decent number of selections. Ordo Xenos Inquisitors as HQ can take them, as can Techmariens in the elite slots.

So above you can see my latest conversions to get conversion beamers into my lists. These two models are my Ordo Xenos Inquisitors wielding Conversion Beamers.

Post a Comment

144 Comments

  1. The Forgefiend is not that amazing. Eight BS3 shots is an average of four S8 hits. A Grey Knight Rifledread outputs the same average four S8 hits, for 40 pts less.

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    1. with the opportunity for more than 4 hits.

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    2. With an equal opportunity for less than four hits. I would far prefer a rifleman over a forgefiend, as they're just FAR more reliable. Forgefiends are NOT worth 175 points, yes they do have some cool rules, but they don't help the forgefiend that much.

      Now the Maulerfiend on the other hand... that thing is a really strong choice as a pretty difficult to stop tarpit at 135 points w/ tendrils

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    3. And with FF's occupying the same slot as Havocs, why would you bother spending 60 more points on something with a less chance to hit at a shorter range and on the whole is less durable?

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    4. but the forgefiend does get its 5++ and daemonforge special rule which the Rifledread doesn't

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    5. A Rifledread gets cover pretty easily (5++ or 4++ in ruins). Fortitude is comparable to Daemonforge, better when you consider that the Forgefield's difficulty lies in hitting the target, not wounding/penetrating it.

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    6. dread has more range
      Can Shoot sooner in Game
      5++ is nice but Cover is Free

      The New CSM Units are a Bit under everything compareable Out there... Unless someone findes a Wickede Combo they are Not comp

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    7. but the forgefiend is possessed so it can ignore stunned/shaken aswell

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    8. with the games i have played ive had no issue will its 36" range plus the 6" move so ive been able to shoot first turn, and with the cover it mean you but always be behind something giving the the enemy vehicles a save of their own but with the invulnerable i didnt have that issue

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    9. Were in the BRB does ist say youre Cover gives the Enemy Cover? -.-

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    10. well, at with terrain my club plays with for you to able to obscure yourself from the enemy you will be doing the same for the enemy as just sitting in terrain doesn't give you a save, though the terrain where you play may be different

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    11. the forgefiend has potential and if you enjoy the aesthetics of the model that is reason enough to feild it in your army.

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    12. Rulebook says area terrain does not affect vehicles, but they get a cover save for obscuration, which you can easily get without blocking LOS to weapons, after all 25% gets you a 5+, so just the legs and some of the waist handles that...ie just put a rhino in front.

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    13. I think 3 eco plasma guns are the way to go personaly. Only 25 point more so i wont be to devasted when it dies.

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    14. Yep, an extra 25 points on an already overpriced vehicle sounds awesome...

      Chaos have better places to get AP2, if you really want the blasts that much, save yourself 10 points and ally in a leman russ executioner. Yeah S8 is nice for the instant death over S7, but the only thing that REALLY helps you with is Paladins, everything else is relatively meh. They might help tank hunting, but tbh BS3 small blasts will scatter completely off target most of the time

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    15. How does a Grey Knight Rifledread average 4 hits with BS4 TL 4 shots? Is that a 100% hit rate somehow??? I don't get it.

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    16. In short, they don't. Psyflemen average 32/9 hits, or about 3.56 hits, however twin-linking gives them a really tight variance, so it's almost always 3 or 4 hits! Remember averages are just the most likely thing to happen, not what happens all the time.

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    17. my psyflemen hit on average 3 times and not 4.

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    18. Alright, everyone, let's break it down for those of you less than capable with math:

      Psyfleman:
      4 S8 TL'd shots at BS4 = 3.56 shots, but NEVER more than 4. EVER EVER EVER. Just making sure everyone understands that it will never get more than that.

      It cannot gain back lost hullpoints, is completely open to air attack, and it cannot take out air targets very easily. 4 BS1 shots? Not even TL'd is that good!

      Forgefiend:
      8 S8 shots at BS3 = 4 shots, like clockwork, but capable of TWICE AS MANY AS A PSYFLEMAN. Plus, this thing is retardedly resilient AND gets to re-roll its penetration rolls for one turn! I literally can't count how many times I would have given anything for that ability!


      These are two completely different styles of attack. According to the law of averages, this thing WILL out-shoot a psyfleman, yet you guys are saying it won't? Do some math, people! 3.56 is < 4.00. The math says this thing is better. IN EVERY SINGLE WAY. Quit crying and use it or go buy grey knights.

      Oh, just thought you should know that I blew up a land raider yesterday with ONE round of shooting from my forgefiend. Insanely lucky? Absolutely! Could a psyfleman dread even DREAM of doing that? NO! I got 7 hits and then used my daemon forge, getting 4 glances, on the nose. No psyfleman could ever do that. Period. He would literally have to roll perfect, in one try. Quadruple sixes with no re-rolls? not gonna happen except once in a lifetime. 6 hits with rerolls of non sixes? WAY better odds!

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    19. Please don't Take this the bad way, but I think the issue here is is the ff worth the points... Too early to tell, but with the new damage chart, you seem to be paying a premium for resilience. The issue is that a ff is still very vulnerable to multi meltas. For 2 ffs you can get 2 riflemen with 80 points to spare... That's a big difference.

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    20. Brent - If you're going to try and use averages, you need to also talk about variances. Yes the Forgefiend does average 4 hits a turn, but it has a high variance, so while the average is 4 hits, it's pretty likely that you get anything from 2 to 6 shots, whereas due to the psyfleman having twin-linked BS4, it's variance means it almost always gets 3 or 4 hits.

      That's not so great in game, as I can almost always rely on my psyfleman to chip off a hull point or two from something, whereas the forgefiend is much more likely to balls up due to bad dice

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    21. With 4 shots, I would agree with you, James. However, with 8 shots, your chance of rolling only 2 hits is very, very low. You will only get 2 hits about 25% of the time. That's not very common. To be more correct in your quoting variance, you will most likely see an average of about 3-5 shots most of the time. This is because, according to variance, you will hit like this:

      1: 12.5%
      2: 25%
      3: 37.5%
      4: 50%
      5: 50%
      6: 37.5%
      7: 25%
      8: 12.5%

      So, most of the time, as I said before, you will get 3-6 hits, with a very low percentage of getting higher or lower numbers. I'll take that.

      Psyflemen will get a consistent 3-4 hits, you're right. However, FF's will average 3-6 hits, which is much, MUCH better.

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    22. @ Brent
      I'm glad your trying to use math, but please try not to talk down to people for not knowing more about it. It isn't everybody's thing. Especially when your clearly still learning yourself. The list of percentages you gave above makes little sense. Try using a binomial distribution. The actual break down for number of hits with BS3 looks like

      0 hits: 00.3%
      1 hit: 03.1%
      2 hits: 10.9%
      3 hits: 21.9%
      4 hits: 27.3%
      5 hits: 21.9%
      6 hits: 10.9%
      7 hits: 03.1%
      8 hits: 00.3%

      Notice that getting 6 hits is indeed just as likely as getting 2 hits; both occurring 10.9% of the time. This is the wide variance people are taking issue with. Understandably so, as reliability is worth something in a game full of randomness.

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    23. Okay, Nate, thank you for correcting me, but you've made my point for me. The point is that getting 2 hits is only going to happen 10% of the time. 90+% of the time you will get 3 or more hits. That's something I can live with. It's better than a Psyfleman. Period. You've just showed yourself, with numbers more accurate than mine, that 90% of the time, you will get 3 or more hits. That's just as good as a Psyfleman, plus you get the chance to have WAY more hits. I'll take it.

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    24. Its true that you will get 3+ hits with the fiend 85% of the time. Your statement that the fiend is "better than a psyfleman. period." is unfounded. Running the same analysis on 4 TL shots at BS5 gives you:

      0 hits: ~00.0%
      1 hit: ~00.0%
      2 hits: 00.4%
      3 hits: 10.2%
      4 hits: 89.3%

      TL'd BS5 gives each shot an incredibly high chance to hit (35/36ths to be exact). So although the average number of hits are fairly similar (4 for the fiend and 3.89 for the psyfleman), the psyfleman has a much smaller variance and can be counted on to give 4 hits. I'm not saying that its high variance makes the fiend unusable. I'm saying its a legitimate consideration.

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    25. BS4, I believe the elite Venerable gets BS5, but it more expensive and not as popular a choice.

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    26. Nate, TL'd BS5 is a 195 point model in the Elites section. That's 20 points more than a FF and I'd certainly hope it does a better job! The regular, Heavy slot, Psyfleman is BS4 and does not average 4 hits. It averages 3.56. Is it highly accurate for how many shots it has? Absolutely. Better than an average of 3-5 with an fair-to-middling chance at 6 hits? No. It is a legitimate consideration, in either case, I agree. However, I am expressly talking about those who say that the FF is garbage and worthless. I've used it in 5 games now against 4 different armies and it has devastated the other side, while soaking up truly gratifying amounts of punishment.

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  2. The Psifledread is much better in many ways, but its a different Codex. Comparisons between Codexes are not very usefull.
    You should compare it to havocs, which i like much more then the fiend.

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    1. It's also fairly useless to compare anything to a unit that is generally regarded as being too good for its points in the first place.

      No, the Forgefiend isn't as strong as the Psyfleman in the same way the Stormtalon isn't as strong as a Vendetta. The Forgefiend is actually costed CORRECTLY.

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    2. Justify why the Forgefiend is costed correctly - just saying it is costed correctly with no justification is ridiculous.

      150 seems about correct for me, especially as the Maulerfiend is just 125 points. You're paying 50 points for 8 S8 shots at BS3, while losing the 12 inch move and ignore cover business - doesn't seem that excellent.

      I think about 150 would have been a more realistic price, with the triple ectoplasma one being about 170 - the thing to compare it to is the leman russ executioner, and that thing isn't many more points - for more blasts with longer range, admittedly at lower strength.

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    3. but the Executioner packs some serious armor along the way !

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    4. And of course you sir are a famous codex writer so your opinion of the points costs in the new book is entirely valid and we should all listen intently as you educate us on what is wrong with the new chaos codex, I'm sitting comfortably you may begin.

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    5. Anon - That's why I think 175 for the double plasma is too expensive, let alone 200 for triple plasma. Executioner is 190 with 3 S7 AP2 blasts at BS3, 230 with 5. When you look at that, along with AV14 front and 13 side, the Forgefiend looks pretty expensive.

      8pointed* - While I agree my thoughts on the internet deserve no more recognition than the next guy - at least I've tried to back up my arguments with my logic and reasoning.

      If you're going to mock anyone for sharing their opinion, it should be Atrotos for just stating "the Forgefiend is costed CORRECTLY", with no supporting arguments or reasoning.

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    6. what you are missing is the type of army your are using to compare. IG is a shooty army. Chaos is much more balanced. does it really seem fair to have our shooty units be comparable to theirs when their cc units are junk compared to ours? perhaps there is wisdom behind the numbers that has gone unnoticed.

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    7. You may be correct, and time will tell! I think that the problem might also be that the maulerfiend is too cheap - the way to look at it is to say the forgefiend pays 25 points per Hades autocannon, which for a BS3 vehicle seems a tad expensive to me!

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    8. I dunno termiantors pay 25 points for a reaper autocanon so that's something there.

      one thing to consider is due to haveing It will not die, and immunity to shaken/stunned effects, the forgefeind is proably considerably more dureable then a dreadnought with compareable weapons and armor. it's certinly not a "I win" unit but I know I'll be useing it

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    9. Well, James, let's truly look at how much S8 costs.

      It has the following stats:
      BS3 WS3 AV: 12/12/10
      8 S8 shots
      IWND, 5++, Ignore shaken and stunned on 2+

      A Missile launcher is 15 points in our new codex. However, it's AP3 and has the ability to fire small blast at half strength so we'll take 7 points off for that and we get 8 points per shot. That's 64 points. Now, how about special rules? Well, a standard walker, across ALL codexes is about 105 points. Now, admittedly, this one has BS3 and WS3. However, it has a number of SR's so let's add all this up:

      Chassis: 75 pts
      (I started with a standard SM walker cost and took points off for the WS and BS decreases)
      Guns: 64
      5++: 15 pts
      IWND: 25 pts
      (I'm going of the Tyranid regeneration cost here, which is actually worse, if I remember correctly, so I added 5 points to that cost)
      Daemon: 30 pts
      (I'm going off extra armor for this one, as that allows stunned to become shaken, but of course ignoring it altogether on a 2+ is WAY better, so I added quite a few points for that amazing ability.)

      So, according to all that stuff, this should be.... 209 points. I think 175 is a pretty dang good deal, don't you?

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    10. Well, a dreadnought packs a multimelta and a powerfist. A mm comes at 10 points and a dread closecombatweapon, too. So that makes 20 Points less.
      Now, demonic possesion only costs 15 points in this codex, but let us asume, 20. Like in the old one. Thats 10 more points, that you have uncorrectly "paid". And now we have 179 Points for that thing, and I would willingly pay 4 points for DS 3. (if we take the codex points on the possesion, we would be 1 point cheaper than that thing acctually is!) So, it isn't a "pretty dang good deal", it is more akin to the opposite.

      And lets say, we pay the full 30 points for the possesion, we would only end 9 points over the actual costs, with weapons, which would be way more flexible.

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    11. Alright, sbsk1882, I accept your points, as you're correct. But, we also both forgot Daemonforge, which is definitely worth 20 points, which puts it back 199. I would say 175 is still a pretty good deal.

      Also, what is DS3?

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  3. Lame argument. "With the opportunity for less than four hits" works just as we'll with no twin linked and just BS 3.
    It's bad. Pays way too much for unreliable extra survivability.

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    1. why do people bash it for not being as good as an uber unit in a broken codex? one that could (and should) have the costs FAQed tomorrow?

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    2. It's not bad. If you read my post from up higher, you will see where I told my story of killing a Land Raider in ONE turn of shooting. Could a psyfleman do that? Absolutely not.

      Also, if you get just one pen on a psyfleman, you just ruined its shooting for an entire turn. Good luck doing that to a Forgefiend. I would love to see someone actually be able to do that. Between the 5++ and the ignore shaken and stunned on a 2+, it's going to be almost impossible to stop that thing from blasting away every single turn.

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    3. Brent, I dont even play 40k any more but like to keep up with what people are moaning/talking about.

      It seems to me that your comments are completely rational and well reasoned. You have no place here... :P

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    4. Haha, I guess I should leave then! It's annoying to me that people don't try models out before they cry about how they don't work. It's just sad, really.

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    5. *cough* fortitude *cough*

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    6. Fortitude is good, but it's no game-changer.

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  4. just received my limited edition, number 32 :)

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    1. Got mine this morning but don't finish work till 8pm UK to see the number

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    2. I wonder who got 666?

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  5. The daemon weapons are effectively a nerf. In the 6th faq update they were very, very good being ap2 and *not* unwieldy. Being generic it also meant you could play your favourite fluff army and not be penalised. Unfortunately that is now not the case, only a Khorne chaos lord can still enjoy this benefit, the black mace is ap4, although very good with a dp. We'll be seeing alot of those.
    Overall the list is not competitive in my opinion, the best you are going to get is Huron/Ahmiran (infiltrate) with havoc spam builds. The cold truth is "point-and-click"="competitive" and "takes-time-to-figure-out-competitive-builds"="because they are not there".
    Don't get me wrong there are some useful bits and pieces in the list (I think the maulerfiend is underrated and would be my personal use of the kit), but all in all I would consider it a useful ally list. However it is also an excellent fluff/casual list - which is what I'll be enjoying it for.

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    1. You Must be Reading a diffrent dex!
      6th is about Combos
      Psyker that buff youre Units
      ICs & Allys that Give you Buffs

      The Standart Marine is dort cheap
      What more so you want?

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    2. Like for like standard marines are no cheaper than the last codex for one less leadership. It's just they have more options now.

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    3. Codex comes out 2 days ago - this guy has already figured out the meta. Well done this man.

      Everyone needs to appreciate the difference between how Matt Ward and Phil Kelly write codexes - look at the old Eldar codex, when it came out there weren't any units that you looked at and thought "oh my god, that's so overpowered", but it had a lot of strong units with lots of options that work together well.

      That is exactly what this codex brings. Matt ward codexes tend to be "take 3x this unit, and 4x this unit, now you win", Phil Kelly codexes have always been more subtle and clever, requiring decent tactics and synergy to work well.

      Maulerfiends are almost certainly overlooked - those guys are obscene at 125/135 with tendrils. 12 inch move, 5++, IWND, Lasher tendrils, daemonic possession, ignore all cover and fleet. These guys will assault you turn 2, and there is very little you can do about it - sure you might kill 1, but there are still 1 or 2 about, and if you're shooting them you're not shooting at troops/fighty chaos lord.

      They ruin things like hammernators "lol, 1 attack each, even if you charge me." and even a full squad of 10 marines only averages 1 glance a turn, which you then get a 5+ invuln, and a 5+ IWND.

      They're not going to stay around too long, but they will tie you up long enough for the really killy elements of a chaos list to get in position. All for 135 points.

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    4. Figured the Meta?
      Have you not played this Game Ever?
      Cheaper stuff is always better... SW proved that in Last Ed. All Marine dexes can have the Same stuff some are more comp becaus of a few points.

      The Question is not weather smth Works Once but how often it Works against diffrent lists.

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    5. "That is exactly what this codex brings. Matt ward codexes tend to be "take 3x this unit, and 4x this unit, now you win", Phil Kelly codexes have always been more subtle and clever, requiring decent tactics and synergy to work well."

      Do you think your opponent playing a GK list will always be stupid? Good player + GK vs Good player non comp list = Good player + GK win. Not all the time granted as chance is always a factor, but a competitive list averages much better.

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    6. I think my point wasn't clear there, the key thing I was trying to get across is that Phil Kelly codexes focus less on individually excellent units (A la Matt Ward), and more around lots of solid units that work together well to do the damage.

      For example, one thing chaos look to be able to do is get right in your face with some scary units right from turn 1! With spawn, maulerfiends, cheap bikers and lords on steeds (Giving really nasty tarpitting, anti-vehicle, and combat respectively) They have some things you really need dead ASAP, giving units like berserkers or even normal marines the chance to setup charges unmolested.

      This sort of tactic isn't immediately obvious, and requires a good amount of synergy to pull off, but it's one of the ways I think chaos are uniquely strong.

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    7. I've now played three games with this new codex and SLAUGHTERED every single opponent. I shattered a Salamanders player, annihilated an Eldar player, who was on a 5 month winning streak, BTW, and raped a Blood Angels player with my eyes closed. And I've LOST to them for the last year with my own SM army! I refute your logic and ask kindly that you actually PLAY a game before you claim this stuff. I've faced no opposition I couldn't beat with this codex. So, I say Grey Knights are good, no doubt about it, but I don't fear them with this codex. I LOVE how Phil did on this one. The only thing I really miss is Daemon Weapons. That depresses me greatly, I must say:(

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    8. Chaos and Synergy. I never thought I'd see the day. Sniff.

      I really miss Daemon Weapons, too.

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    9. >>The cold truth is "point-and-click"="competitive" and "takes-time-to-figure-out-competitive-builds"="because they are not there".

      The cold truth is you have no idea what you are talking about. The best players in the world don't play "point and click" retard armies. They adapt codexes to make them fit with their style. A good codex is one that is flexible to player style (as this one is), not one that has a perceived overpowered unit in each slot. GK is a good, by wildly overrated by noobs like yourself who want the dice to win games for you, codex.

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  6. Actually I think the biggest disappointment for me was the lack of any tie-in/fluff/rules for Chaos Daemon allies. I guess they thought well "there is allies in 6th, that's all you need", but there is now virtually no synergy between them (the only mutual benefit now is epidemius). Which considering Daemons have pretty much been part of the actual lists since Realm of Chaos is really disappointing.

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    1. Epidemius is the strengest Allys IMO
      2+ 5++ 3+ fnp and T5 oblits!!!!
      What would be Bad about a nurgel CSM Army?

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    2. Nothing. It would be good. However bear in mind you need to kill a good deal of the enemy before the good stuff kicks in. Against MEQS that may not be easy (purely because of numbers of enemy let alone anything else).

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    3. It wont go fast... But youre Army is builder to survive Not to put Out dmg... The longer ist fies the better for you.
      You Could Focus 1 rhino and Plasma the Passangers with a nother.
      Just Saying its Wörth a try

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    4. For nurgle army use ahriman to infiltrate typhus with a 35 man cultist blob. Get him into close combat and pop off his destroyer hive. That will bring epedimius tally up fast.

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  7. As far as the Daemon tie ins, you are looking at the end product a of 2 codex series to unshackle Daemons from CSM.

    Overall I'm very happy with this codex. It gives me the opportunity to use all of my current models, that I started collecting in '93, and not have to shed out a red cent to be competitive.

    As a 40ker that's all you can ask of your game. Worry not about all of that other noise, just play the game you enjoy.

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    1. "and not have to shed out a red cent to be competitive."

      Whether you spend or not on Chaos, you won't be competitive. Go GK/SW if you want to do that. Then you have to spend.

      "As a 40ker that's all you can ask of your game. Worry not about all of that other noise, just play the game you enjoy."

      Amen to that....;)

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    2. Not if he has IG units, CSM/IG is going to be very popular and will have some murderous combos. The best lists in 6th (at 2k at least) will be allies lists.

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    3. Chaos is competitive, Anon 4:55 AM. I've played three games so far and annihilated every single opponent. I used to lose to them constantly, BTW. The new codex has amazing synergy, gives multiples threats that cannot be ignored, and basically forces your opponent to make tough decisions about what he needs to kill in order to lame your army.

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    4. Honestly I kinda like the codex with a lot of strong units but no death stars, it makes it harder to focus fire one unit for a make or break set up

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    5. >> Whether you spend or not on Chaos, you won't be competitive. Go GK/SW if you want to do that. Then you have to spend.

      Brave little anon trolls...

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  8. Boo waggghjhj codex wasn't broken mummy please tell the bad mister Kelly off. I'm sick to death of hearing this. This codec is amazing. I could smash anything with it, learn to play the damn game and not expect a codec to dish out what you will take for you, competitive does not = broken, Ffs learn the damn rules, know your enemy and pick your damn targets.
    Ps anyone who says grey knights are the competitive army to beat is an utter fool! You can make a good list from it but no one ever does it right. Real 40k players will have a field day with this tome of awesome, all the cry baby cookie cutter list power gamers will moan and moan and moan. Love it!

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    1. People are HAPPY with the codex, they like the fact it's not cookie cutter, like the previous codex?

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    2. "This codec is amazing. I could smash anything with it, learn to play the damn game and not expect a codec to dish out what you will take for you, competitive does not = broken, Ffs learn the damn rules, know your enemy and pick your damn targets."

      I'm curious. Have you played Chaos for a long time? If not, what do you play?

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    3. I kinda agree with 8pointed. Love the new codex. And am glad its not point and click because I didn't want to see the bandwagon get too heavy.

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    4. Lol
      It is Point & Klick Once the Imba lists are on the Forums You'll See

      if it Wasn't why did you CSM Lot QQ so Long Before?

      Delete
    5. Thank goodness for some logic around here! I agree 8Pointed, this codex is much, much better than the last one, has some great units and does not suffer from "I take this unit so I win" syndrome, which I am sick to death of.

      Delete
    6. I kinda agree with 8pointed. Love the new codex. And am glad its not point and click because I didn't want to see the bandwagon get too heavy.

      Delete
  9. Im happy with the codex, except how Tzeentch got the shaft. Limited use MoT, it gives no benifit to psykers, Ksons being the most expensive inflexible unit in the book.. why did Kelly hate on them so much that he even nerfed the poor copy and paste job he did with them.

    Beamers in 6th are ok, but it's still the same problem from 5th.. most of the time you've over paid for a single gun. That said I have two techmarines and a xenos inq converted with them, but I rarely field them because of poor unit synergy and Techmarines are super expensive with them.

    -Jfunkd

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    1. I agree completely. Tzeentch got reemed hard. The fact that the MoT doesn't help using psyker powers is silly. And the thousand son sorceror being only 2 pts cheaper then the HQ version? Without the ability to upgrade? And Ahriman not having something to help his casting ability makes him less useful since when he is rolling probably 3 to 4 powers a turn his odds of getting a Perils is huge. Not to mention he will be worthless if a farseer is on the board, which at 230 pts is nothing to laugh at. This book is really good for Nurgle, Slannessh, and Undivided. It's antiair is weak too, so it doesn't help allivate the flyer problem.

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    2. How was it a "nerfed copy paste job"? They are the same except when the sorcerer eventually dies to a failed psychic power, they are just S&P and nothing worse. If anything they got slightly better but that's it. They weren't particularly good before (unless you just play 3+ armor) and didn't get that much better.

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    3. I am throwing my conv beamers on inquisitors and attaching them to a 12pt acolyte squad in a rhino.

      I agree they get much more expensive with a techmarine, however a 25pt model is a great place to put them. Especially when you move above 2000pts and have the extra hq slots.

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    4. False. Anti-flyer is fine with CSM.

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    5. Yeah, I've had no problem smacking my buddy's stormtalons out of the sky with havoc squads. 4 BS4 S7 shots with skyfire? SOLD!!

      Delete
  10. Will there be a second release of models, Natfka? You had that rumoured long ago, where do we stand now? :)

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    1. Its only the Monday after the big release. We should start hearing something soon I would think. Perhaps later in the week.

      Delete
  11. does the black mace become ap2 when a daemon prince has it

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    1. He's a monstrous creature, so yes.

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    2. So the fact the weapon is stated as ap 4 is ignored because of mc?

      Delete
    3. yes, read the Smash rule:

      "A1l of the close combat aftacks, except Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a rnodel with this special rule are resolved at AP 2 (unless it's attacking with an AP I weapon)."

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  12. Have there been any more rumours for the next 40k release now that Chaos is out? Anything about Dark Angels, or more Chaos releases?

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  13. Has nobody ever used Noise Marines before? I keep seeing how they are somehow great, and I look at the codex again and again with my eyes cross and am completely baffled. Sure they are cheaper, but they are substantially less effective, sure their weapons ignore cover, but it only matters for the blastmaster.

    Before they had assault weapons, so they could move, shoot, and assault and take advantage of their I5.

    Now, because of Salvo weapons, they will hardly ever be assaulting, and if they want to take advantage of any decent range, they HAVE to stay still. Bolters will outshoot them now if you ever plan on moving these guys; like the bolter the champion has to use because he can't be upgraded to a sonic blaster.

    It made a very flexible unit into a gunline. The addition of the icon for FnP is nice, but it basically offsets any points savings from the old book. As a pure gunline unit, other cult troops do it better, take Plague Marines or Thousand sons, or hell even regular Marines with a mark. I think they lost their uniqueness and when people start doing the point to point comparison they will fall unused again.

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    1. Also noise marines can not take a sonic blaster and a CCW. it's one or the other.

      Delete
    2. @Xzandrate
      Noise marines definitely took a hit.
      I think what we're seeing here is a vocal group of experienced players that are glad to get a slightly underpower/overcosted dex. This is good, more power to them. I do wish they didn't have such a "if you can't make it work you suck" attitude but thats life.
      My issue with the last codex was that their were some(or many) units that you simply could not take because they were just too awful e.g. bikes. This has been cured I feel you can use just about anything in the codex without hurting your odds. That being said I think on the whole the dex is indeed a bit underpowered/overcosted. I think its correct to say this army is not straight forward. But what that boils down to for the average player is that its harder to use and will result in many many more losses, especially to armies that are easy to use.

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    3. Just out of curiosity, would the ability of the Slaanesh power to give +1S to sound weaponry make a difference? It seems to me that this ability would make for some nasty shooting.

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    4. A volley of S5 would indeed make a difference as far as how many wounds your getting and could be very deadly. But it seems a very situational power at best, being that it requires you to shoot (or assault) a specific unit with a specific gun. Also it leaves you with the biggest drawback of sonic weapons which is salvo; which is worse than previous edition's rapid fire rules. Not only does your range half if you move, but you get less attacks. So if you move the sonic blasters are worse than bolters. If you stand still, their 24" reach isn't hard to avoid.
      One use I'm seeing for them is to take their Icon and camp them on an objective. Their stationary firepower would be a deterrent for enemies to get close. FNP, 3+ armor, and hopefully some cover would help them last against range. Just an idea; definitely a dramatic shift from their previous unload firepower then assault role.

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  14. I have to agree that I see lots of potential and cool options in this codex. CSM are going to need to be smart with their assaults, even their lords can get punked by a dude with a fist (unless nurgle). I too was really disappointed with the daemon weapon options. In the battle report aftermath Phil Kelly had commented that the chaos player shoud have taken a daemon weapon. Maybe the murder sword is missing the daemon weapon rule? Otherwise there are no viable daemon weapon options for a non MoK Lord. Characters need the ability to get ap2 in close combat, otherwise a sgt in terminator armor will accept the challenge and win.

    Other than that though, this is a solid, themey, codex.

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    1. Murder sword in one hand and power axe in the other. You'll take down the opposition warlord with ease and sweep away those seargents with the axe.

      Delete
    2. Problem with that is that you only have a 3+ armor save unless you are in terminator armor. You can't afford to be striking last or on same init as a fist. You need to be able to kill them 1st. Not allowing flesh metal armor as an upgrade on lords and sorcerers is one of the only issues I see with this book

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    3. DP and Tzeentch lord are blatantly the best choice to use the murder sword and mace. Don't forget Biomancy.

      Delete
    4. A Lord will not get punked by a dude with a fist. Khorne Lords, for instance, have 4 wounds, T5 and 4 attacks base, if mounted on a juggernaught. He would quite literally MOW throw a sergeant with a fist. Rage would give him 7 attacks on the charge. S4 or not, that's going to slaughter a standard SM sergeant before he ever gets to attacks. Not to mention, you are now immune to ID, courtesy of your mount. Nurgle you already mentioned, of course, but Tzeentch lords have a 3++! Nobody's going to be punking that guy!

      Delete
  15. Hey Natfka, anything on Black Templars?

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  16. I am sorry if i seem stupid here but how are grey knights point click win? Am i just missing it? I understand i have few models to use as my gk collection is still small but i have read and read the codex and am only mildly more successful but then again i am using what i have but as i said its not much

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    1. It's because people read the statline on Psyflemen dreads and immediately start crying. Are they amazing? Oh, of course. Broken? Nah. I've played against those things before, they just become higher priority.

      Delete
    2. Thanks i was afraid i was missing something that was starring me in the face

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    3. No prob. What you're hearing is everyone crying over the fact that there are units in your codex that LOOK completely OP, but are not. Paladins being one of them.

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    4. Too expensive to me i run a terminator squad strike squad and purifier squad as my core then add a master dreadknight storm raven as points allow

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    5. And thus you have avoided one of the traps of your codex, coincidentally. Paladins aren't nearly as amazing as everyone thinks, and Dreadknights are way better than everyone thinks, funny enough.

      Delete
  17. Something very overlooked is the potential of the dimensional key. Yes you have to get your hq into combat quickly, but Kelly gave us the tools to do so. Take Huron or Ahriman as your warlord so you can nominate yor key holding HQ to infiltrate. By the brb an IC can't join a unit of infiltrators if he doesn't have it, but if he does he may join a unit that doesn't. Put him and a squad in a land raider and you will be able to assault. If you are lucky, your opponent will win initiative and go on turn one, allowing you to assault. Infiltrators can't assault on turn 1, but they can on turn 2. The brb clearly stated on pg 9 that a turn refers to player turn. Using this you can unlock the key on YOUR first turn and from then on your units will not scatter. Add a fort with a com unit upgrade and you will very likely get your deepstrikers when and where you need them. This makes it very viable to build a lethal raptor, terminator, mutilator, oblit army.

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  18. The same duplicated spam combos will arise from this codex as they did from the last bland version, which this codex is an improvement on but still falls short of some very simple but fundamental aspects.

    The lack of any real Deamon weapons options for one. Yes, there is a selection to choose from but they are all very specific and costly. The inclusion of a generic DW would have solved this.

    No option to equip a Dark Apostle in terminator armour, a simple one.

    No eternal warrior on the Deamon prince, a crucial one.

    Still only one dedicated transport, when a dreadclaw was well overdue.

    No real nod towards to Traitor Legions with regards to special rules, whicg could have easily been written.

    No new Special characters for the undivided legions, so once agian ignoring the Alpha legion, Night Lords, Iron warriors, Word bearers (if you exclude the generic Apostles and WSmiths).

    There are many little things in the book that are lacking where they could have easily have been included, and not from a competeitive gaming angle (because I'm not a competetive gamers) but from a fluff standard.

    It really should have been a complete rewrite with 4th ed edition as a template rather than an amendment to the last bland edition.

    I will ofcourse concinue to collect, model and play chaos but considering the reception the last book recieved I would have thought that they really would have put alt more thought into this one than it seems they have… I mean, everyone was crying out for a Legion based codex, and we certainly haven't had that.

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    Replies
    1. I'm with you on the Daemon Prince getting shafted; without T6 or Eternal Warrior, I don't think fielding one is worth it at all. One force weapon or S10 hit, and my HQ is a smoking pile of warped flesh. Eff that.

      Night Lords got a nod from Warp Talons, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers get recognition from Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles, and I guess you could credit Alpha Legion with the Cultists. . . but I'd rather see some Legion specific rules. If GW can make Codex's for BA, DA, BT, UM, SW, and so and and so forth, can the Chaos counter-parts get a lil' lovin'?

      Ah well, we'll find out in a decade or so...

      Delete
    2. The DP has the daemon rule though right? (I don't have the book) that gives him EW doesn't it?

      Delete
    3. Not in 6th ed they don't.

      Delete
    4. it's possiable EW will be FAQed in. that said expecting legion rules was proably a bad idea. fact is that GW doesn't wanna make people feel they have to play "our canon invented unit" they WANT us to do unqiue paint jobs and units. with that in mind legion rules is almost a bad thing.

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    5. Pretty sure the Daemon rule only gives the model a 5++ and the Fear USR.

      Delete
    6. Infiltrating a land raider because Ahriman gave the terminators infiltrate seems contrary to the in tent of that warlord trait. I'd expect a fast FAQ for that

      Delete
    7. Read the brb for infiltrate. It IS intended with transports in mind. Considering the cost of a land raider and termie squad, and the fact that your opponent has a turn to deal with it before you can assault is pretty balanced. Its a great strategy option to get your opponent to focus all of his fire on a single target while you position the rest of your units with little fear of being shot.

      Delete
    8. All these things would likely have been granted had Ward wrote ur book....

      But he didnt so too bad. Youll live. Just be happy you got an update for a codex that did not absolutely need one.

      Delete
  19. Erm talking about Havocs - yes they are cheaper (SW & BA & Vanilla have this since years) and are flexible, but the latter is not new - they could do this in the last three codecies.

    Talking about Sonics - yes, ignore cover, the wapons effect is even better than before, but the blasters a SALVO - read it in the mainbook ;-) And the mighty blastmaster is only one per 10 - so in an average army you´ll have 3 and not much room for other stuff. Champs could take a siren since the last codex - so nothing new here.

    Take a look to the hefty overpriced deamon prince and see: It MUST be ugraded to a god-sepecific ... what the heck, they are no undivided anymore?

    ReplyDelete
  20. In short, they don't. Psyflemen average 32/9 hits, or about 3.56 hits, however twin-linking gives them a really tight variance, so it's almost always 3 or 4 hits! Remember averages are just the most likely thing to happen, not what happens all the time.

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  21. Why are demon weapons more numerous and with more special rules in the GK dex than the CSM one? Am I missing something? Are the GK worshipping Malice or something?

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  22. Fallout from Matt wards epic codex writing skills. Just shows even when not working on a codex, he can still F it up. ;)

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  23. Am I the only one who notices that they used the blood gorgons for the cover, but have made no reference to them in the whole codex.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No you're not the only one. Real shame if you ask me. They had a chance to do something unique but they went the cheaper route.

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  24. I can't help feel that the whole codex is a half job. A slight improvement from the previous in some areas but a complete back step in others. Its nowhere near what it could or should have been. A pretty anti-climax for a 5 year wait.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's been a lot more then 5 years, and calling the most in depth codex they have release a "half job" is remarkably ignorant.

      Delete
  25. I'm hoping future WD articles (maybe even a free web article) will give us some more chapter approved deamon weapon rules. what we really need are "create a weapon" rules for DWs. it's really not too hard. "a demon weapon has a base cost of x. these weapon types modify the cost for Y. these special rules can be added to a weapon and modify the cost T"

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    Replies
    1. Yeah, me too. I was really hoping to be able to put at least a plague knife on my Nurgle Lord, since that would give him poisoned attacks and, when combined with a power axe, that would be S5 AP2 poisoned attacks.

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    3. No that wouldn't because you can't combine the effects of different melee weapons in assault.

      You pick one weapon and go with it for that whole fight sub-phase; you'd either go with the axe or plague knife, not both.

      Delete
    4. mauler, you clearly misunderstood what Brent was trying to accomplish. He wanted a "build your own" demon weapon that allowed him to build an axe with the poison USR....

      that would be a VERY powerful tool indeed (though doesn't Typhus have one?)

      Delete
    5. That's exactly what I was referring too, thanks Anon. I didn't word that properly, which is my bad, sorry Mauler. I was hoping to be able to customize weapons a little. Ie, a poisoned Power axe.

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    6. Haha, I clearly did! My bad, out of context :]

      Delete
  26. create your own daemon weapon would be awesome but it will never happen... i love this codex i think it is tonnes of fun, my problem are armies like the necron flier spam that just strait up should never have been allowed... they suck all of the fun out of the game. people who take super serious power lists piss me off! i much prefer the "this model looks cool i want to take one" than "this model has OP stats im going to take 9 of them"

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    1. In a tournament you are supposed to bring your "bucket-o-win" list.... thats the point. IF you want best general. Most tournaments offer:

      a) Best general
      b) Best painted
      c) Best sport
      d) Best overall.

      the guys bringing flying circuses RARELY are able to win options B-D. and if you're panning on winning A you NEED to have a strategy to counter the outliers from the norm....

      of course in non-competitive play (i.e. pickup games or games with friends) you always have the right to refuse any game. HELL you have the right to refuse a game in a tournament - just give your opponent the win and go watch your friends games.... there is almost always a case where this is a better use of your time... unless you're there to win (A) as described above and in that case as I've stated, you should come prepared to (if not win) eek out a draw against the "unique" lists such as flyer-forces.

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  27. how would people feel about versing a Khorne themed chaos bike army but instead of using bike models mounting Brezerkers on Juggernauts? since giving a Lord a Juggernaut adds +1T +1W and +1A and a 12" move it kinda works the same, as giving a marine a bike adds +1T +1A and a 12" Move... thoughts?

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    Replies
    1. I think that would be awesome! Plus, as long as you didn't turboboost with your bikers, it would be perfectly within the rules to attach your khorne lord on juggernaught to a bike squad. I would gladly play against a list like that!

      Haha, with double FOC you could have 6 ten-man biker squads!

      Just take 4 squads of 10 cultists to satisfy your troops requirement, lol

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    2. Why not? I was thinking about using seeker models for Slaanesh bikers. I think it's perfectly acceptable.

      Delete
  28. the only problem is when you compare Bloodcrushers and bikers they have very different stats.... and alot of players get a little funny about "counts as" and demand WYSIWYG

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    Replies
    1. Slap them in the face and point out that WYSIWYG was originally intended for the vehicle design rules years ago. It isn't a rule and was never intended for noobs to stifle creativity.

      Delete
  29. You've priced a vehicle the way forgeworld does. Forgeworld is rarely priced appropriately.... you have to consider damage output as well as damage soak:

    Either fiend is huge. taller and longer than a dreadnought and on an oval base. This means it is easier to draw range to them and it is easier to land a template on them. Net result is less survivable.

    Also, at I3, WS3 both fiends (the maulerfiend more....) are susceptable to losing hard to other walkers in combat as well as basic infantry with krak grenades. this results in less survivability.

    Potential damage output: Well, the problem with being nearly twice as expensive as a psyfle-man dreadnought is that the psyflemen can now threaten two targets per turn where the fiend can only target one.... Sure you can maths up however much you want, but having ran a decimator w/ 2 butcher cannons since the models were released I can assure you that you will hit 4 times on average.

    Fancy rules which up the survivability of your expensive beast are nice, but IWND doesn't work if and when you get ganked in one turn... and how do you win at 40K? Pick the biggest threat and kill it until it is dead, then move on. As such you can expect your fiend to never get to make an IWND roll unless your opponent flubs his dice, only throws a single "throwaway" shot at the fiend, OR is a bad general....

    The fiends are nice and shiney and new but suffer from competitive choices. 3 T6 obliterators is only marginally more expensive than the 3 cannon option but offers more adaptability: need to kill a tonne of bodies? plasma / assault cannons. need to kill a tank at range? Multimelta / lascannon. Need to kill a tank up close? TL meltagun. Need to kill an MC? TL plasmagun.... All the options are there in a smaller footprint. Oh and you can play wound allocation shenanigans by repositinoing wounded models.

    HAVOCS as stated bring a tonne of S7 shooting. 155 points for 8 S7 shots that hit on 3's, or 190 points for 8 S8 shots that hit on 4's.....

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    Replies
    1. ... this was a response to someone else's post above... not sure why it is down at the bottom.

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    2. I'm going to assume you're talking to me, since you're referring to pricing. Regardless of how big it is, it is far more resilient that, say, a Dreadknight, which is 170 with a weapon even remotely like the FF. Now, I agree, once it gets into CC, the DK will annihilate the FF. However, I would bet good money the FF will blast that DK apart before it ever gets there. My point is this: Resilience is very important in this meta and a 5++ and the ability to regain HP's is extremely important. I've used a FF on two occasions now and it took over 1500 points worth of Eldar shooting for three turns before finally succumbing. During that time it fired each and every turn and killed a falcon and two wave serpents. I was thoroughly impressed and it made back its points in spades during that game. When I watched it blast my buddy's LR apart in one turn of shooting, I was sold on it for all time. This thing is being very underrated right now and I can't wait to see how everybody who is crying about how lame it is right now starts whining that GK players won't play against them when they take one!

      As for havocs.... the 8 S8 shots on the FF is 175, not 190. And yes, havocs are very nice and I take them every game, but they are my AA and light AT because my FF mows down enemy armor like it's going out of style.

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  30. >>Well, the problem with being nearly twice as expensive as a psyfle-man dreadnought is that the psyflemen can now threaten two targets per turn where the fiend can only target one

    Nearly twice as expensive? 270 points is "near" to 175 points? Wow...

    >>IWND
    I see this none-sense thrown around all the time with Necrons as well. The notion being that "RP will rarely come into play"...but the fact is that's just complete bull shit. Because or range, LOS, threat priority, and a number of other factors, more often then not armies can't just devout every single gun to one unit at a time. The fiends will most certainly benefit from their combined resiliency upgrades. Plus, people seem to be forgetting they have an extra HP over psyflman as well.


    The two units have similiar damage out put, but one has an extra HP, a 5++, IWND, and demonforged. That's a pretty reasonable deal for 40 points. Plus, the Psyfleman stick out like sour thumbs as obvious target priorities as the only units with 48" "Psycannons" in an army filled with 24" weapons. The fiends will be in much more aggressive armies generally and are a harder nuts to crack.

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