This was brought to my attention yesterday, and I want to run with it so that people are aware of what to watch for when it comes to tournaments. This is in the form of weighted dice, and it really happened, and in fact, it just happened at Beaky Con in Tampa, Florida. Just for the record Necron flyers took the thing.


This is the report from the player that got hit with the cheating dice. Here also is a pic of the dice up top, a link to them, as well as a link to the full article by Tastytaste over on Blood of Kittens.

here are your links
The full tournament report and more info about the who what and where of the cheating
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/10/15/tits-for-tournaments-beakycon-results-cheating-and-public-service-announcement/

Link to the dice
http://www.awesomedice.com/KPL01703

via Tastytaste on Blood of Kittens
The holy grail of cheating – Weighted dice.
Everyone has thought about it, or maybe even heard about someone who heard about a friend who knew a guy who saw someone using weighted dice back in the 80s. It’s one of those legends, a street rumor that goes around gaming clubs with no real tangible evidence.

Well I got to witness it first-hand.

Let me go back to September of this year, when I was at the Penny Arcade Expo in Seattle Washington. Chessex has a booth there with all of their dice. Tens of thousands of colored cubes and geometric shapes. As I was standing in line to purchase some more dice, I noticed they had a tray sitting aside. “character rolling dice” they called them. They were D6s that rolled either a 1 or a 6 almost continuously. They are EXTREMELY obvious. But only once you know what to look for. They are larger than a 16mm dice, they have no divots on the pips and they have a very silver looking pip color. They look oddly wobbly when you throw them, like some odd magnetic force is grabbing them. Oh, and they roll a six (or a one), almost EVERY time.

Back to reality. It’s round 3 of Beaky Con. I’m happily setting up my deployment area and I’ve looked over my opponent’s army list, he’s a nice enough fellow. “Ok” I say. “Let’s roll for who goes first”.

I rolled something dismal. A 2 I think.
He tosses out his roll. A 6.
There it is. The character die.
At this point I’m almost amused. It can’t be can it?! Weighted diced?!
I snatched the die up and exclaimed “This is a weighted die!” I rolled it 3-4 times. 6, 6, 6.
I call the judge over. “Roll this 5 times, tell me if you don’t get a 6 every time.”
Sixes. All of them.

At this point, I have stated clearly that I am refusing to play this player. I’m pretty livid. He’s going off about how he has never seen that die before. It’s not his. He got it out of a bin of dice. A friend gave it to him. He’s never used it before. Things are heated. I’m pretty fucking pissed.

The judge asks if he used it to roll in the game. Yes.
“Well then the only choice is a full DQ”.

That’s good I guess. Right? I ask what I will be getting. Full points for the mission. I’m not really happy either way. I mean, I didn’t earn those points. I miss a game.

My opponent asks if I want to play anyway. I laughingly refuse and leave the room to get some air.
In retrospect there are several things that are upsetting about the entire ordeal.

First, it doesn’t matter that there was only one die. You only need one die. Roll a 6, go second, deploy reactively then seize the initiative with a 6. Boom.

Need that penetrating hit on a landrader? 6. Need that vehicle damage result to be guaranteed? 6.
The rest of the dice don’t even matter at that point. It only takes one die to ruin the game.

Secondly, I feel that the player should have been ejected from the tournament. I will not go into specifics but I feel that if this player had been a no-name player, instead of someone who the TO and judges new by name, that he would have been ejected. I don’t know, but that’s just my stance.

I know the judge, he’s a really nice guy who I play regularly. But I wasn’t happy with how the player was treated. It was like “well, he only used it once so, he’s DQed from prizes and you get full points but yeah that’s a little crazy.”

No, it’s not crazy. It’s cheating. IT’s not even funny and it should be dealt with to the harshest extreme possible. Ejection, and denial to future events. What would the result have been at NOVA or Adepticon?
My opponent was allowed to play on day 2. If weighted dice is a measure of one’s willingness to cheat, what else is he doing? Did the first 2 people he played on day one have their game ruined by seemingly amazing rolling?

Later, the player came to me to ask me not to tell anyone. That he was embarrassed and nothing like this had ever happened and that his weekend was ruined as well as mine. He was crying now. I shook my head and walked away.

I’m not a very sympathetic person to players who cheat or use a “oh, I didn’t know that rule” to gain advantages against less knowledgeable players. I play this game to have fun, and most of my opponents were stand up guys who I would happily play against any day.

So where does that leave me? I guess I have a choice. I can name this player, and he can be shamed or whatever. But he knows who he is. The players at Beakycon know who he is. If his name is on the list at any tournament, I know I will not be attending.

There it is. Myth busted. The old weighted dice tale given life and in the end at least I have a good story to tell right?
–Altmann

231 Comments:

  1. My only question is....

    Where can one find such dice? :P

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    1. I know the player in question having played against him for years. he did pick it up from a bin at a local store and it was placed there by a prankster (we suspect who it could be but can not be sure).
      The reason he was not ejected and got emotional is because he was telling the truth and he was in shock over it. Although I understand your frustration You are doing the right thing not naming him . The prankster i am sure did not thing his joke would get this far.

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    2. Why are you replying anonymously, grow some balls if you want to change this from an obvious cheat, to a case of being an unlucky fellow

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    3. I call BS at Anonymous. Nobody who plays tournaments buys dice from bins now. A bunch of nonuniform dice are way too hard to transport. Sets of dice are far too cheap and readily available now for people to be buying singles from bins. They should publish the cheaters name and ban him from 40k tournaments for life. Go find another game.

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    4. IF the accused was really that honest, he should have voluntarily given up the dice and the round once he realized that he had weighted dice, rather than continuing to play and being called on it. The cheater should be outed and perma-banned from all competitive play.

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    5. Agreed, I only play with my own dice. I never grab from a bin. My own dice are... lucky. NO they aren't cheat dice!

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    6. Anon 2:44 Lots of people buy bin dice, or pound'o dice or many other ways of getting unknown dice, way to make assumptions based on how you do things!!

      Nobody has any proof that he cheated on purpose, or that he used this die in any other games. He got caught, was DQ'd from the game he got caught cheating in (accidental or not), there's nothing more that should be done. Nobody is a mind reader and nobody was in his head while he was rolling so nobody but him knows if he was cheating on purpose. He got caught and it was dealt with, good enough for me.

      Also good of Faeit 212 to put up a post about the dice so everyone has a chance to learn about them, and good for you for not posting his name. Many people cheat, and many in much more easily proven ways and with more easily proven intent. For everone to come down on one guy who got caught rolling one die, that he says was accidental, is dumb.

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    7. Oh pls
      Dont be so naif

      How many dice Rolls Till its cheating?
      How many Games?

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    8. Everybody caught For smth wrong denials it
      Denials Intention
      Says he was Set up by xyz
      Starts Crying His Way Out
      He Even Said Tell noone about it

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    9. if he didn't notice it rolled all 6 , for years, well maybe it's not his fault, maybe he's got some serious dyscalculia, or math disability, or is blind and walks with ecolocation , or maybe he was always lucky even with other dice and always come s out with 6s , , or maybe he is the Emperor in disguise- you expect Him to roll all sixes right??

      No , he's not a cheater, it's warp magic!
      what a shame, what a cheater!!!
      well, this guy is like guardsmen in close combat aganist tyranids: defenseless!! He should be shrouded with stealth and going to ground from shame, what a moron! He should have been stoned from other players , trowhing dice at him. Weighterd dice off coure- more painful!!
      Anyway, a guy here, in 5th edition era, dressed at tournaments with a striped (vertical stripes ) T Shirt of Inter FC .. so he could measure using his shirt!!! WTF LOL he should be stoned too , but at least it was not subtle at all, and you could also use HIS shirt to measure, and also is so idiotic it is nearly funny. Or maybe not, it's only idiotic!

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    10. Oh, come on. What if the guy did make a mistake and did not know? What proof dose anyone have that he did intentional cheat?

      What gets me most is the number of people calling for this guys head when it could have been non of his fault at all. He might have picked up new dice the day before to make sure he had enough and never even used it. Yet the same people don't have half the worries about people who "accidentally" move 6.5" or take 100 points too much.

      If the guy gets caught doing something again, ye, ban him, but how would you feel if you were baned because you misplaced your dice the day before a tournament, ran in to you local store, grabbed what you could then traveled to, and paid for, a tournament and got banned for ever because of some joker.

      Personally i think TO's should provide dice and tape measures at major tournaments to stop any of this nonsense.

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    11. Stoned with dice! Stoned with dice! MAIM BURN KILL THOSE CHEATING DICE WHAAAG :P
      maybe , well you know, you're right, he didn't notice in 24h and naftka did in 5 m. So maybe he's only a poor idiot .. who is playing necron flier spam :p

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    12. if he was playing Sisters , maybe we could all pardon him!

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    13. The more you read in other related forums (y people that know the accused), the more there is an obvious pattern of cheating/rules abuse. Just follow this link:

      http://fortykwc.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/554-our-winners-are/page__st__20

      For those that don't want to go through it, here's the fast summary. The person is listed as having multiple problems at multiple stores in his local area. He's even had a shirt made up that he wears that says he cheats (guess he thinks its funny). And yes if you go through the link (and the page after it) you can find the person's name and probably figure out where in Florida the guy is central to.

      When taken as a whole, the information doesn't show the cheat was an accident. The person was also at the same tournament the previous year. And based on reactions of TOs, it looks questionable as to whether they'll prevent him from showing at the next one (as he seems to know the organizers, or they him, fairly well).

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    14. Oh come on, as if he'd never, ever rolled that die before he started the tournament.


      Thanks for the article. I'll be looking out for them now.

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  2. Name and shame the little b*****d, he deserves it! At the end of the day who is the say he hasn't picked up prizes at other tourneys cause of his fixed dice. Name and shame so he can be blacklisted in future.

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    1. I dont think thats right. He probably alteady got it enough at BeackyCon. But only one time for sure he was cheating so you dont know either.

      Yes its wrong what he did but putting him for online and public humiliatiin isnt exactly much better.

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    2. I think publicly humiliating the guy would be a bit much. Yeah he cheated yeah he used a weighted dice, but he was already humiliated at the event and now no one trust hims. Also it was just one dice, the possibility is that he is telling the truth. At my local gaming club they sell hundreds of dice in big buckets. When I buy some and use a random one there is a chance could be waited and I didn't know. People make mistakes and it not like the guy brought hundreds of these dice he only brought one. He might have just made a honest mistake and humiliating him any farther would just be mean. Plus he did apologize

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    4. Yes of course it does. No where else in the world does anyone cheat...

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    5. Cheaters like him deserve what's coming when they get found out! I would ban him, I would name and shame him and I would tell him to his face that he's a little **** and not to show his face at any tournament for a minimum of a year - at the very least.

      Cheating in anything in life cannot be allowed to pass us by without incident or action!

      If it had happened in front of me I would have been extremely angry!

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    6. Plenty of cheaters outside America, quit with the American bashing man it just makes you look like a bigoted xenophobic moron.

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    7. Honest mistake, really? He just happened to pick the die at random from a bin, and then just happened to pick it at random from his other dice to roll for initiative? The benefit of the doubt is one thing, but it seems a bit far-fetched.

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    8. Just picked it up from a bin randomly. Then picked it up on purpose for initiative because he'd already been through several games with it and it was clearly "lucky". I've not yet met a gamer who wasn't really superstitious about their dice. And personally, it would take me a long time before I started to suspect a die from the bin was weighted.

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    9. Yes, he should be named, shamed and other TOs should be made aware of who cheats at their tournaments so they can either ban them or keep them under strict observation and/or warn their opponents.

      Are there any competitive sports where people taking illegal performance enhancing drugs don't get booted out when they are caught?

      Does the name Lance Armstrong ring a bell?

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    10. He was cheating, so he deserves to be punished for it, there's no doubting that. Though it's a bit harsh to ban him for life. Put him on a tournament blacklist, that prevents him from playing for 2-5 years at ANY tournament he tries to enter, and distribute it amongst TO's. Then if he still hasn't learnt his lesson after that time of exclusion, ban him for life from any tournament. But at least give him time to reflect on what he's doing, and change his ways. If he still hasn't he deserves to be banned for life.

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  3. It seems like you were a little too pious here about the whole thing. People cheat every day. The proper response here is not to completely attack the person down to their core, but to simply ask him to throw the dice in the trash so they can't be used on anyone else at the tournament. Instead, all you have taught this person is that he should try harder to hide it next time. Compassion is contagious my friend.

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    1. +1 for this.

      Show some compassion. It couldn't hurt and you end up looking like the bigger person.

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    2. The hell with all that. He cheats, he goes down. You think he would learn not to cheat by not doing anything? The only conclusion he can get to is: "I cheat, and nothing happens, so next time, I'll cheat twice". Compassion may be contagious, but punishment shows the lesson as nothing else can. And not only to him but to everyone else.

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    3. I'd go even further and make stocks and rotten eggs & fruit compulsory at tournaments. Even if no one cheats, we can still chuck em at the cheese list players. XD

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    4. Wtf?
      What Kind of Attitude is that "everybody Cheats"
      So its a who cheats the Most comp????

      Srry! But Not beeing Hard on cheaters is unfair towards everybody trying to Play fair.
      Its like Saying "oh you only murderd 1 Person 1 Time... We should be soft on you so you lern" and if they do it again you will Claim its becaus we were to Hard on them. BS!!!

      People that cheat should Not be playing EVER
      Its Not like he got a rule wrong
      He delibertly planed to cheat his Way to the Top Spot in a Competition.
      He did Not care about the other Players attending!
      As he got caught he cryed like a Baby to get Out of it.... Instead of beening a man and admiting he cheated for selfish reasons!

      No ones wants to Play this Person. Name him!

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    5. That kind of behavior is a slap in the face to every person that throws down their hard earned cash and expect a level playing field for a tournament. I also assume there were prizes involved.

      It's such a base lack of respect for anything short of their own personal need to win and greediness that the ONLY correct response is to ban him from every tournament that TOs can ban him from.

      If he wants to play 40k, he can play with his friends, should he have any, which is unlikely unless they all cheat too.

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    6. Compassion for a cheater?

      It's that kind of thinking that has lead to the current US President having the worst foreign policy record in international history.

      "If we don't have barbed wire or locked gates, the radical Jihadists won't feel threatened by our Embassy."

      In April, after these things were removed, homemade bombs were tossed into the Embassy premises.

      "If we don't display armored vehicles and armed guards, they won't feel as though we are invading them."

      Over the summer, the same groups harassed those who went to and from the compound, and started planning more attacks.

      "No more live ammunition for the personnel on staff there. We want to show that playing nice is the way to diplomacy."

      The staff felt that their lives were being threatened and requested increased security. They were denied, and eventually the death of the US Embassador and 3 other Americans was the result.

      "Uh...it was because of an amateur, anti-Muslim video that no one saw and just came out a few weeks ago...."

      Yes, spread a lie and continue to play nice to those who want you dead, all the while insulting the intelligence and lives affected by the tragedy.

      If you claim alcoholism is a disease, people won't change their habits. If you continue to walk away from a bully, he or she will keep pestering you.

      If you play nice towards people who have malicious intent, they will take advantage of you or worse. You can't let a cheater off. Second chances are great and all, but he needed to be banned from this tournament, and those dice confiscated. He effectively stole from other players. He brought those dice with malicious intent.

      "Everybody cheats" is not an excuse. That still makes it cheating. When it's easy to make an example of someone, it has to be done.

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    7. . . . computer jockey monday-morning-commenting on what goes on outside the wire . . .

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    8. Whether you feel the consequences were severe enough for this individual is a matter of personal opinion. However, the fact remains that consequences were meted out. Staying angry over it only serves to put unnecessary stress on yourself.

      Just my 2-cents

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    9. ... Are you really comparing world diplomacy to cheating at a table top game? Person cheated, they get punished and may be less trustworthy, thats pretty cut-and-dry. Real world issues like that are not as simple as that, those things happened because of various complicated reasons, not just "oh we took down the wire so they decided to come in and kill the ambassadors!"

      You just make yourself look ignorant when comparing relatively trivial things to world events. The world isn't as black and white as you want it to be anon.

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    10. "Are you really comparing world diplomacy to cheating at a table top game?"

      Yes.. yes he was. Don't worry. I'm biting through my lip trying not laugh as wel *BWAH HAHA!!*

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    11. "Everybody cheats", which is obviously not true, is a TERRIBLE excuse.

      Some people cheat. Some people commit rape and murder too. The argument is absolutely asinine.

      If you are that much of a toolbag to bring cheat dice, then your name should be known so you can be banned from future events, at the least.

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    12. He cheated, DQ'n him was the proper action. But people grow and people change, let him learn from it and move on.

      That said, he did say he look at a vendor selling the dice and then they showed up in a game... seems rather convenient.

      Maybe its just the gamers i know, but we all know our dice and if an odd one showed up out of nowhere i don't think id be throwing it in a game.

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    13. BS!
      He should be named, shamed and other TOs should be made aware of who cheats at their tournaments so they can either ban them or keep them under strict observation and/or warn their opponents.

      Are there any competitive sports where people taking illegal performance enhancing drugs don't get booted out when they are caught?

      Does the name Lance Armstrong ring a bell?

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  4. I don't play tournaments for prizes. The douchenozzles get turned on when there are stakes other than pride.

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    1. The even more interesting thing is that I've been on the end of cheating in a friendly apocolypse game at our FLGS. There were no stakes other than some benfits for the winning side the next time apoc. game was played. The player still felt the need to cheat in a friendly game.

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    2. I don't play in tournaments, period. "Douchenozzles" abound - cheaters, WAACers, guys who do whatever they can to abuse the rules in a misguided drive to be perceived as the best. I'd suggest staying far away from them if you want to actually have fun with the hobby.

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    3. I did a tournament at my local GW and was signed up by the staff when I didn't even know all the rules for fantasy with no prizes. I had an absolute blast. Terrific time with a bunch of players who are a lot of fun.

      Tournaments can be great when it's a core of players looking for fun. Anyone who brings loaded dice in a dice rolling game need to be shown the door IMO. That, to me, is the diplomatic and kind solution as it's fair to everyone else who showed up to play when.they could have been doing something else.

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  5. People make mistakes, and he got caught and paid the consequences for his actions. He may have used the die in other games or other tournaments, and it will always be a black cloud over his head for those that know him, but I bet he learnt his lesson and it cost him much more than a lost game in a tournament. Now he gets to spend the rest of his life living with that shame

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    1. Problem is, he doesn't have to come back from this at all or worry about any repercussions in his gaming scene. He's buddy-buddy with the organizers of the event, and they are already joking with him and talking about the next games.

      It's a shame too as I live right outside Nola and had thought this would be a good tourney to check out sometime. No way I pay money for it now.

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  6. Really? It's JUST A GAME. Who cares if he was cheating? There's no money involved, no one has bet their car or their wife on the result of the game? The guy was CRYING, asking for forgiveness. And this guy shook his head and walked off. Who is in the wrong here?

    If someone was genuinely this upset over such a trivial thing I'd pat him on the back and say cheer up mate, it's just a game. Because at the end of the day, that's exactly what this is, a GAME.


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    1. it was a tournament and money is spent to play in these things.

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    2. Except he most likely (given the fact that he cheated using LOADED DICE) upset that he cheated ... he was upset HE GOT CAUGHT.

      Doesn't deserve any sympathy, and should have been barred from the entire tournament.

      How is cheating this way any differant than performance enhancing drug use, you know you're doing it ... you made a concious decision to do it ... you suffer the results, but you don't get to cry foul and say you didn't mean it ... YOU DID.

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    3. This was a tournament... so bit more than just a game in this situation as its a competitive environment with prizes up for grabs (could well be cash). He didn't ask for forgiveness, he asked that he tell no one - basically so that he can go to other tournaments without the shame of this incident hanging over his head.

      Maybe it was a mistake and he didn't realise the dice was dodgy, but it seems unlikely. Sounds like he got punished fairly.

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    4. Oh... no wait, he should have been booted from the tourney all together. That would have been better.

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    5. "There's no money involved" except the $50 entry fee paid by this player's opponents and the potential prizes they were being unfairly denied.

      He brought any poor reaction on himself, and potentially ruined a once a year event for a group of other people.

      He deserves everything he gets, and in fact, I think he should just be thankful those involved have decided not to name him online.

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    6. "I don't play to win, I play to have fun" A lot of people say. But that doesn't mean "I don't care if I win, so go on and cheat all you want." Because playing against cheaters isn't fun.
      As described in the article cheater dice have a different look and feel to them, so if you didn't intend to use it and "It just got into my bag", then why did you use that dice that feels odd and you have never played with before?
      The guy cheated, I would probably treat him the same way. The fact that he is crying just might mean he is sorry he got caught.

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    7. I do kind of agree with the anon above, the authors actions after the incident was discovered was less than exemplary. I would have played the game for fun and taken joy in crushing him on the tabletop. I also would have accepted the apology the next day. If my Kid cheats that what I hope would happen to her. It teaches a lesson about real sportsmanship that tournaments like this are sometimes lacking

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    8. Plus the winner got a Dark Eldar army painted by Next Level painting.

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    9. It depends on how seriously you take this game, I suppose. For me, the performance enhancing drug analogy doesn't quite fit, because it's not the Olympics, it's just a board game, similar to Risk, or Trivial Pursuit.

      I understand that the guy should have forfeited the game, and maybe even the tournament, as Natfka pointed out, people pay money to attend the event and to have enjoyable games.

      But to be named and shamed on the internet, even tacitly like this, is a little too much. The guy's initial reaction was amusement. For me, it would have stayed that way. Instead of becoming furious at this person, I would have probably felt a bit of pity - the win at any costs mentality to me really is a symptom of some deep-set sense of inadequacy.

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    10. I don't see why anyone here feels he had any obligation to forgive the cheater, especially not too long after the incident. no one is obligated to forgive anyone. If he did forgive the cheater, more power to him. But in a tournament setting, is going in with a competitive frame of mind. You play with respect for the game and respect for the opponent. The loaded dice guy did not have respect for either. Therefore, not forgiving him soon after the incident is very understandable.

      If in a few days or Weeks if he wants to reach out to the cheater so they can put out behind them, that would make more sense. But if the average person is angry, in the moment, you can't expect them to just say "its ok i forgive you" right then and there.

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    11. He made a mistake. People make mistakes. People cheat in 40k all the time albeit a lot less obviously and we don't single them out to the whole world even though we know they do it. He's been shown up enough, let it go.

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    12. Wtf?
      The Guy is prob laughting his ass Off
      He will just try again next Time

      Why is everybody trying to protect the Cheater?

      What about the Guys who got robed of a Fun weekend?
      What about the Hobby? If we let everybody cheat until they get caught whats the Point in playing?

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    13. I would let it go... if he were 12 years old. Was he 12 years old?

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    14. I seriously doubt it. While we shouldn't defend the cheater, we certainly shouldn't go after him with torches and pitchforks. That's what we do to trolls of certain marine factions ;)

      Personally, I doubt the story of 'picking it out of a bucket/bin/whathaveyou' as it'd be more practical to buy a box of dice to make all your rolls. I have a 36 box of Chessex dice (which I use and consider lucky, they're orange after all :D ) The guy would've bought or had the dice previously and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out if it's loaded.

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  7. What I don't get is what satisfaction does get out of winning if he cheats? I find the most fun games are the extremely close ones! I actually do not enjoy thrashing people.

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    1. I only enjoy thrashing necrons and probly the next wardex

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    2. That's why I don't play tournaments (alegedy). I am awful. I paint and build really well but because of that focus my gaming is weak and it's not that I don't want to pay and lose I just don't want to ruin a good players time with my full on suck;)

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    3. I always feel like I'm cheating when playing my gk army ... =)

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    4. +1 internetz awesome funny sauce

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  8. I saw cheating dice (that's actually the name) in my local pen&paper store which also sells tabletop stuff. Those dice were white d6 which exactly looked like normal d6. I'm sure you can mix them with normal dice and you won't know the difference :-/.

    Maybe you should get sealed dice packs at a tournament.

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    1. No one would go for that, Could be that if someone is actually that worried about it you just ask your opponent to do a couple test rolls, re-rolling sixes until a 6 doesn't show up.

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    2. Hm. I think some people would be stupid enough and some others nice enough not to notice :-/

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  9. I really don't see why we all don't know this guys name... TOs should really support the community at large and let us know who this guy is. I for one would be upset if I was playing a known cheater and wasn't informed a head of time

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    1. They do sort of mention it in the linked post above, sending you to the Wrecking Crew forums and noting that the guys user name and the strange fact that his sig is

      “They call me Loaded”

      lol

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    2. Yeah, and the guy's profile says he's in the Miami area. But the sig could have been created in response to the events of Beaky con. Not before. Who knows for sure. Still I'd like to know who it is.

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  10. We caught 2 guys stealing figures at our club, I wanted to ring the cops but they "were crying" so other members of the club just told them never to come back. I am sure they learnt their lesson... "don't get caught!"

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  11. Ah wonderful, the guy is apparently from Miami. I've probably seen the guy at our Local GW store and dont even know who it is.

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  12. I really despise cheating with a passion. If anyone was caught using loaded dice in our league or at an event I ran.. They'd be banned for a long time, at least 6 months and everyone would also know.

    I can forgive and forge with a little time, but with a lot of opponents available, why would I choose to play a known cheater.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Tastytaste is a bit too dramatic about this whole thing, I don't really know how important doing good on a tournament is for you, but if you can't get over some guy with a weighed die then you have some issues. Was it wrong of him to cheat? obviously, but what you do in this case is call the judge, have him DQ'd and move on, not be all prissy about it like your whole life depends on that D6 roll. Maybe it's because i'm more of a modeler and painter than a player but if you're gonna let something like a loaded die (which was caught at the first roll nonetheless) ruin your whole weekend you need to take a good look at your priorities in life.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Eh...you have a point. I would have never gotten that pissed off. Actually I probably would have laughed it off and told the guy "nice try" while having him DQ'd by a judge.

      I think the reason Tastytaste was so pissed is because this was round 3 of the tourny. This guy may have potentially screwed over his first two opponents and changed the outcome of the tourny.

      Delete
    2. It's not the game or the money or the prizes, it's the *principle* of the thing. Perhaps some of you don't remember, understand or care, but there is such a thing as principles, and standards of civilised behaviour. Cheating, stealing, and lying are *wrong*, and Tastytaste is exactly right to treat him with contempt.

      You shouldn't get away with cheating, lying, or stealing without consequences.

      Delete
    3. I agree. But there's also varying levels of acceptable and appropriate punishment. And since there is no way to absolutely prove that this person did not "accidentally pick up this dice from someone else while not knowing it was loaded", then I think the most that can and should be done is a complete DQ from the tourny and banishment from further Beaky cons. However, as much as I would like to know who this person is, I do not think his name should be published on the web for the world to see.

      Delete
  14. What is DQ? If you're going to use abbreviations in writing, please first define them.

    Good move. Should have been ejected from the tournament totally and publicly announced as having cheated. If you cheat in this manner, you should totally be called out to the community.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. disqualified. Isn't dq a universal abbreviation?

      Delete
    2. WHAT? Have you ever watched Football, Soccer, Hockey, Baseball, Softball, Basketball, Track & Field, Tennis, Table-tennis, Wrestling, Volleyball, Cricket, Poker, Bowling or Horseshoes? It stands for disqualified.

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    4. It also stands for Dairy Queen. Not everybody uses the English language the same way. Between the abbriviations, slang, and many other "unique" uses of the English language, I'm surprised we English speaking people can understand each other!!

      Delete
  15. I've been going back and forth on whether or not some dice I bought a while back might be weighted or not. In alot of my games, they seem to roll consistentally 1 or 6. I tested them at home and over time(20+ rolls) I started getting averages matching what you'd get with normal dice but these phases of only 1 or 6 still pops up more than any other combination. Is there a way I can determine if they are loaded or if its just that I have really odd luck?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Get a food or postage scale, and take 6 dice and put them on it, write the weight down, then remove one and replace it with the suspect Die. If the weight changes by a noticeable amount, it's get a weight in it.

      Delete
    2. Take a large (i.e. tall) glass of water and gently drop the dice into the water. Weighted dice tend to be obvious in a water environment as the weighted side consistently rotates down before the dice touches the bottom.

      Delete
    3. Magnets, strong rare earth magnets. The intertuberwebz say most weighted dice us a small amount of metal for the "weight"

      Delete
  16. I'm amazed weighted dice isn't a bigger problem. I read an article about cheating on BoLS and it mentioned how to make one. My roommate made one that worked great and looks like a normal die with real pips. Luckily we only use it against our one friend in our house as an inside joke.

    Anyways, I think anyone is responsible for their own actions and deserves the results that come with them. His name should be made public as a cheater. And if he wants to change his ways it should be up to him to clear his name by proving himself again.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Surely if you're going to make a weighted dice for an in house joke, you make it so it rolls 1's and give it to your opponent. Always more fun to watch their frustration at themselves than you! :)

      Delete
  17. Ok he cheated but his excuse (a die picked up at random) well I have several casino dice all identical except one has 5 on each face which I actually used for a few rolls in a friendly match by existent and it me rather than my opponent that discovered my mistake and apologised. All was good an we still laugh about it today. What I'm saying is using a loaded die once could geniuinly have been a mistake and if tasty had of plated just one round he could have known for sure deliberate cheating was taking place and still got his opponent DQ.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wrong. He knew damn well what he was doing and he knew it was wrong. That die has no business in his house much less close enough to his competitive army to be mixed "accidentally". Shenanigans my friend...there is no innocent owner of loaded dice.

      Delete
    2. Exactly

      Why do you think he cryed? If ist was all a Just a misstake & he did Not know? If youre innocent you dont cry.
      The Guy is a Bad example for all the Kids in this Hobby!

      Delete
    3. While the story does make it sound like the guy did it on purpose, there are ways that it could be a mistake.

      Also crying is not a valid indicator of innocence or guilt. Being caught cheating and, fairly being persecuted for it can be upsetting even if you cheated by accident. While perhaps it's not valid for that guy, I can see a fairly realistic story for it happening.

      Imagine this: You've had an incredibly bad week and you've pretty much made your way through it because of this tournament you've been looking forward to. You start playing your second or third game, finally feeling better about your crappy week, and then your opponent grabs one of your dice and calls a judge over for it being weighted. You didn't know that your friend or spouse had put your weighted dice that you bought in college into your dice bucket because they didn't realize they were different. Your crappy week has just been capped off by a DQ you had no reason to expect. And then to cap it off your opponent doesn't believe your explanation, refuses to play you, and goes around telling everyone that you're a filthy cheater.

      Some people crack under circumstances like that. Bad week, DQ'd from the tournament they had spent months preparing for, and now seen as a cheater by everyone they play with for something they weren't in control of. Perhaps you might say that the person should have explained himself better or something, but not everyone accepts explanations and not everyone is very good at giving them.

      Delete
    4. That may all be.
      But you are Saying he did Himself Not notice that the dice were Not his or loaded?
      He rolled anyways for 2 Games and did Not notice until he was called Out and DQed?
      Suddenly he Remembers the dice are his Friends???? And he crys about what?

      Srry Not buying it -.-

      Delete
    5. @General - How do you know he was doing it on purpose? Are you a mind reader that was there reading his mind as he rolled the loaded die?

      Delete
  18. DQ = Disqualification.

    ReplyDelete
  19. The timing of this article is perfect! Yesterday I posted part 2 of my Better Gaming series that deals with all types of dice shenanigans: http://thebasementgamers.blogspot.com/2012/10/better-gaming-part-2-dice-discipline.html

    ReplyDelete
  20. It is my opinion that the fella knew he was using the loaded die. He has thrown it many times, getting that little dirty deed rush each time.

    The silly fuckers big mistake was not anticipating running into a person who knew what to look for... I noticed in the telling if the story that the teller of the story had a reason why he very convienently and innocently knew what to look for /wink /wink. Oddly, juat seeing the dice sitting on display, he knew how they acted when they rolled and spotted it right off, hmm...just sharp eyes I guess, but knowing what to look for for whatever reason and actually dareing to use it in a tounement are two different scenarios.

    My opinion, the cheater should have been allowed to win the tourney, then exposed on the dais, stripped of his titles, lands and beheaded on the spot.

    But seriously, kick his ass out of the tournement. Not doing so has also shamed the TO's good name and the tourney's good name.

    Bellumvinco

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. well then I'm glad you and you're Jacobin-esque opinions are not in charge.

      Delete
    2. The thing is, as a result of this article I googled weighted dice and found videos of this dice rolling, and once you've seen it, its insanely easy to spot. The roll is more of a bounce, and the die itself is silvery, which isn't a particularly popular finish in my experience. Thinking you can get away with 7 games with one of those things without anyone seeing is incredibly foolish

      Delete
  21. I have no sympathy for cheaters. I've played the game long enough to know when someone is lying about the rules, or rolling a dice under a model on purpose so they have the option to reroll if necessary. But the one thing that pisses me off more than anything else is when they lie about their army lists. Obviously this doesn't happen at tournaments since lists are required to be turned in to the judges, but in casual games I know certain people who do this all the time. For example, I was playing against this guy's chaos marine army just last weekend. I asked him to tally up the points since he was using DV models and some extra and he came up with the bargain points cost of 416. I called bullshit, took the codex, did the math myself and it came up to 674. At this point he tried to play it off as an accident but I wouldn't have any of it.

    People who cheat are usually the same kind of people who have no faith or interest in their own strategic ability. They deserve no sympathy as they don't show the level of dedication as people who are in the hobby honestly.

    ReplyDelete
  22. a buddy of mine found a chessex dice with an extra pip on the 2 side, giving a marine a 2+ most of the time. needless to say when I found that one I got kinda pissed. he got all offended that I would accuse him of cheating. So, I took the problem dice and scratched the white from the extra pip off, so it looks like a 2 now. When he saw I did this he got furious with me, talking about a tourney at our local store soon etc. was really funny.

    ReplyDelete
  23. A friend of mine owns a set of those dice. If you handle them or watch them closely they are very obvious. If you throw them with any force, the're not even that reliable.

    I once used them for fun to role up some stats, and managed to get a barely legal statline, talk about a streak of bad dicerolling....

    I really don't care much for cheaters. If they want to win that badly, the're welcome to it. As long as I play fairly and have a good time, I really can't be bothered.

    ReplyDelete
  24. THE OLD CSM FAQ is down from the GW site. Was up yesterday... im just saying....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What are you saying!?

      Delete
  25. Damn....this story is quite telling. There is a guy in the Sacramento tournament who is most certainly cheating by using loaded or baked dice. We all just feel sad for him. I cheat legally by playing Grey Knights. 8 )

    ReplyDelete
  26. I keep getting the feeling that this is actually awesome advertisement for these dice. Hmm...some conversations are double edged swords. In a effort to educate the good guys/gals about this, the opposite is also getting some knowledge. Hopefully the more desperate players that may be tempted to use these dice will be smart enough to know, we know.

    Thanks Natfka, for shining more light on this by posting it.

    Bellumvinco

    ReplyDelete
  27. Yes, everytime I read it. It is more and more obvious. This is a fucking commercial!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Bellumvinco and I agree on one thing and that's an appreciation of the author's effort. Yet another thing for me to be looking for on the battlefield....

    ReplyDelete
  29. I only play amongst friends, and dont play in tournaments, but it seems to me that the best thing to do for a TO is that every table has 20 dice for both players to share, provided by the TO, and that no other dice are permitted. Also, all roles should be made within a cup to prevent any accusation of palming etc.

    Now I know this may be expensive, but given that TOs are charging for entry, it wouldnt hurt to buy a load of dice. It would also be a one of purchase (with a few occasional purchases to replace missing dice).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Twenty dice? You haven't played a guard infantry blob list have you? :)

      I always take a dice cup to Tourneys. If I suspect practise rolls are being made, I will request the player makes all rolls of five or less dice from the cup, and I use it for all my rolls regardless to avoid any arguments (I tend to get quite good luck with dice which can lead to accusations against me! :) ). Refusal = nil sportsmanship points.

      Delete
    2. So if people don't play the way you want, and roll using your method you screw them on sportsmanship?!? Glad I don't play with anyone like that, sounds like a douchey move to me.

      Delete
  30. This seems like a place where the mechwarrior/heroclix convention is a good idea. At any time during a match for any reason you may choose to roll your opponents dice instead of your own. Less practical in warhammer due to the number of dice used but it makes a solid balancer if you suspect that your opponent may be using loaded dice.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I wouldn't have minded if he cheated if he was using Grey Knights. Those poor whipping boys need all the help they can get! :)

    ReplyDelete
  32. Natfka, off topic but just checked gw website and the csm faq is no longer up. I expect we will be getting an update soo.

    ReplyDelete
  33. This cheater is disrespecting you. To me it's more about time than it is about money. Some people may have had to travel to get to the tourney, spent a night or two in a hotel maybe. Drive to and from. That's not counting the time spent at the tourney. Then you come across this ahole? It's not a game. It's all those hours of your life this guy wasted if you hadn't noticed the weighted dice. Dude should have kicked his ass in the parking lot.

    ReplyDelete
  34. It's a shame that people feel the need to cheat in a game of 'toy soldiers'. I think 40K is better played socially in gaming groups and what not rather than at tournaments where the primary objective is to win rather than have fun but hey ho just my two cents...

    ReplyDelete
  35. Cheating happens because it's not dealt with in a proper manner.
    I've seen players do all kind of things that's a form of cheating but I've never seen a player put out of a tournament for it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I'm honestly astonished by some of the sympathy here. The player was far better reserved than I would have been, as he just walked away instead of dressing him down and making a huge scene. He called over a judge and accepted his ruling, even though he didn't care for it. The bottom line is, the guy is a cheater, which makes you a liar. I cannot, and will not abide a liar, and I don't feel the guy should be allowed to compete. It was a low thing to do and he does not deserve the opportunity to cheat others. My understanding is that top prize was a fully painted dark elder army from a professional painter? If I was that painter and found our someone using loaded dice won the fruit of my labors, it would be the last time I offered my work as a prize. See how something like this effect EVERYONE?

    ReplyDelete
  37. why does everyone assume that it was intentional? from the pictures of the dice it is entirely possible for it to have been an accident? it seems like a huge amount of rage, considering it was the first roll of the game. its not like there is any evidence that he had been using it the entire tournament or even more than once.
    anyone who has gotten a "pound o dice" could easily make that kind of mistake.

    it seems that the more reasonable responce would be to check and see if he keeps using the same die for everything or important things or if he just picks up random dice from a larger pool of dice (granted if they are all the same the whole thing is moot considering you would have to be doing intentionally if you had alot of those dice)

    but the overall question, why does everyone assume it was intentional?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. this, exactly. The very fact there is no proof, the very existence of a plausible explanation, proves to me this instance is much more an outpouring of previously built up frustration against a perceived segment of the gaming world that is then directed at this individual. It also seems to hinge on a certain understanding of the game, which is not shared by all, i.e. the extent to which one scales the impact of a game on their life. I do not assume it's intentional at all. The overly aggrandizing and emotional responses here just turn me off from tournament play. In this case, the response is hurting the gaming community much more than an event which may , OR MAY NOT, have actually happened.

      Delete
    2. Why Are you buying the Story from the Guy who just cheated?
      How is he credibale?

      He cryed like a Baby When he got caught!!!
      Do you cry if you didnt do it?

      He cryed becaus he wanted to get Out of the Trouble


      This is a serious issu for wargameing
      If People get away light when cheating at a Tournament... What Stops them from cheating at the FLGS or vs New Players?
      Who is going to Play if everybody is cheating?

      Delete
    3. Why do you buy he cheated? How is anyone more credible than anyone else? Tasty is credible because he has more time on his hands to leave an internet imprint?

      I'm not saying this guy is 100% innocent, that would be stupid; however I fail to see a good explanation for him being guilty. I see a confluence of contingency, easily explained by happenstance, followed by an all-out witch hunt with the properties of a lynch mob.

      People cry all the time from being falsely accused. It's one of many natural human reactions to being ganged up on. Fight or Flight. The very fact that he was pushed to that circumstance speaks to the viciousness of tournament gamers and opens up space for an explanation that the guy is thought-less (failing to explain well), unorganized (borrowing dice), and possibly genuinely innocent (as the crying is a standard psychological response to unfairness just as it is to fear of being exposed).

      Delete
    4. He played up to 3 rounds with a die or dice that clearly feel different than a normal die. he never apologized, he only asked to keep it a secret. These may not beer definitive, but these clues certainly lean in. the direction of intent rather than accident

      Delete
    5. Srry marlow

      You are Not being logical
      Crying does Not Point towards innocents

      His Claims are Weak excuses just like the Crying

      The reason to misstrust is becaus its the Default Position if you have nö facts to Prove his Claim

      But tastytast has the facts to Prove loaded dice were rolled.

      Stop excuseing unfairness

      Delete
    6. Actually, TastyTaste has the facts to prove that loaded dice were rolled. He does not have the facts to prove that the guy intended to cheat because that would require him to be inside the guy's head.

      Default position should be: I don't know if he meant to cheat or not.

      Just a point of logic. You can argue whatever reasonable assumptions you want, but remember a court of law presumes innocence until guilt is proven. And remember that Intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter.

      Delete
    7. Agreed. It's easy to say he cheated cause he did, but to say he did it on purpose is just people making judgements without KNOWING for sure. He got DQ'd from the game he used (or accidentally used as he says) the loaded die. To say he should have been ejected from the entire tourney (esspecially when someone above posted that it was a prank played by one of his "friends", which could be true) is just over the top. If there were ANY proof he knew it was loaded then fine, boot him and ban him for a length of time, but to freak out because the TO didn't kick him from the tourney and take him into the back room to be beaten with dice socks is nearly as bad in my opinion, especially since there is no PROOF either way.

      Delete
    8. What Logic have you Guys got?

      He was caught!!!!!

      He did Not denial they were loaded
      Wich he would have if to him they were regulare dice.... He denialed HE put them in the bin!!!!

      Besides his Bad for takeing somebody elses dice to the Event!!!

      Its Not about wether you wanted to do it
      Its about Doing it!!!
      Everybody can Claim , setup, Not knowing, or cry
      That doesnt make you innocent
      If it would every Murder would Claim Not knowing the Gun was loaded.

      This Guy got Off Easy


      Delete
  38. The better question is why did he cheat. Does he lose a lot and wanted to win? So fine, he's already lost by cheating. What's the point banging on about it? Who really loses? The twits banging on about one person because they didn't think of it or want to qin just as much?

    Perhaps it highlights just how much of tthe game is down to blind luck. Not tactics, strategy or planning, just luck. Perhaps something to do is pay points for, just once, an average roll. Who else has dropped four melta guns beside a landraider, missed with two and rolled 3, 4 and 2?

    When that happens it isn't you, it's not your opponent, it's simple, blind luck defeating you when your tactic should have worked.

    Come on. Lighten up. If someone wants to win so badly, let them. Be the bigger man by playing, shake on it and get another game in. All you're doing is making a young chap unhappy. Heck, his confidence is already low enough to feel he had to cheat.

    ReplyDelete
  39. For all we know the person bought it with a pile from a dice bin, or he could have bought it specifically to cheat.

    Ever heard of INNOCENT until proven guilty.
    There is enough reasonable doubt here.

    Unless he had the pack/receit of the character builder dice on him, then anything is possible.

    The dice could have been from a pile in a dice bin and he never knew.

    DQ was the right call, but a witch hunt like what is being posted here is not called for, especially without any difinitive proof of willfully cheating.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Innocent until proven guilty?

      Like, say, being caught using a loaded die in a tournament game.

      How much more proof do you need?

      Wait - I got it, it was a frame-up. He was totally innocent and the other guy palmed the die and switched it for the loaded one, thereby winning the game with max points without having to play.

      Delete
    2. you apparently have no concept of "intent", which our legal system is actually very, very, interested in.

      Intent is not derived from an overt reading of facts btw, that's why we have courts.

      That's also exactly why this person who mentioned "witch hunt" is exactly correct. Another good word would be Star Chamber, as the person himself isn't here to defend himself. We're just using this imaginary person as a massive punching bag for our collective griefing, outside the bounds of any structure.

      Delete
    3. BS
      He got caught
      You dont have to Prove he intentionally Used the die. He has to Prove he did Not!

      Its very clear those were his dice & he Chose to bring them. He only Used the excuse AFTER he got caught. Why belive him over the Fakts?

      Delete
    4. You actually do have to make an effort to show continuity between motive and action.

      None of the things you mentioned as "very clear" are in fact very clear. You are using words to create an a priori condemnation.

      "He relayed the realization that he was unaware of said dice being tainted upon being alerted to that fact"

      "excuse" and "caught" have connotations. You lack rigor.

      Furthermore, it is only logical that a person would have an explanation _after_ being alerted to the fact . . . that's the definition of an explanation . . . it occurs _after_

      Delete
    5. Proof beyond reasonable doubt does not require absolute proof of intent.

      Did the person use the dice - absolutely, facts not in question.

      Did the person have a motive to use the dice - yes, significant advantage was to be had using the die for critical rolls in the game.

      Did he select that particular die to roll for a critical roll in the game? Yes, he chose the die and rolled it. It could possibly have been just a random choice, but this particular die being different in size to others would be easy to pick out intentionally.

      Did he intentionally use the die knowing it was loaded? Unknown and basically unprovable.


      However, the chain of events to have him using the dice in a tournament without being aware that it rolls high does rather get to the point of 'beyond reasonable doubt':

      Requirements:
      Die had to have been purchased by a third party, then unpackaged and resold as a normal die. - Possible, but not very likely.

      Player has to have purchased the die unaware of it's nature. - Entirely possible.

      Player has to have either not used the die previously, or failed to notice that this particular die (which is of a different size to normal gaming dice) almost always rolls a 6, and tends to roll in a funny manner. Possible, but rather improbable considering that it was spotted after one roll by the person that caught him, doubly so since most gamers are very aware of their dice's performance.

      Also, if the events occurred as described - the player was very inconsistent in his story about the provenance of the die. Since the only possible defence in this case is to have the story of being unaware of the die being loaded being believed, then he destroyed his own credibility as a witness by changing his statement several times.

      Beyond >reasonable< doubt - quite probably based on the evidence so far.

      Is this the whole story - no, just one side of it, but one that someone apparently was willing to have published and attributable to them.

      Delete
    6. Marlow
      Are you the Cheater? :D

      Delete
    7. I agree with marlow, too many people are freaking out and calling cheat without all the facts. We don't know how the dice made it into his bag. We don't know if he has a ton of different die types, colours, sizes and that maybe he really did just grab a random die from the collection. Also not one of us is a mind reader that was there reading his mind as he rolled. It's fine to have an opinion, but to portray that opinion as fact like many are doing is wrong. Only he knows if he cheated, he got DQ'd from the game that he was proven to have used the die in, that's all that can be done without proof that he cheated earlier in the tourney.

      Also think about all the people that have been imprisoned wrongly even when the prosecutors apparently had evidence that they did the crime. And then think about the fact that we have NO evidence that he intentionally cheated. To be crying about it now seems pointless. I think it's a good thing to bring up in an article to let people know it could happen and how to watch for it, but to write a whole article about how he's a cheater and should have been punished more harshly just says to me I'd rather play that guy than Tastytaste, I mean if I made a rules mistake is he going to write an article about me and try to get everybody to hate me and never want to play me? The cheater was punished for the cheating that was proven, get over it and move on.

      Delete
    8. You Turn it Around so he is th victim!

      Delete
    9. Actually this is rather like a Winter Olympic athlete a few years ago who got busted on a drugs charge. He claimed that the substance was contained in a Vics inhaler he'd bought from the local pharmacy which had a different composition than the ones in the UK (which was true). No one knows if it was true or not, but the ban he received was significantly reduced as I recall because of the lack of provable intent. He was still thrown out of the tournament but he was allowed to compete at other events (but probably with greater scrutiny). That's what should be done here.

      There's also a pretty obvious way to prove intent if not disprove it. Inspect all his dice and see if more than one of these buggers is in there (not that anyone at beaky seem to have worked that one out according to this article). If there is, then he's obviously guilty. If not then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Throw him out of the tournament but keep it quiet and then next year order sealed dice packs of 20-40 dice for each competitor to make sure it doesn't happen again, and check his damn dice at the next tournament.

      Delete
  40. Its just a bit sad and pathetic....its a game, yes you've paid to play in a tournament but its still just a game.

    if he has to cheat to win at a game it pretty much says everything you need to know about him.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I need a set of these, seeing as the dice gods hate me and my dice ony roll 1's....unless I'm playing with shooty orks, then it's al 5's ad 6's

    ReplyDelete
  42. If there are prizes on the line, reps to be made; then there should be dice handed out by the TO. Here is your bag of luck. You have some special attachment to some dice, play them with your bros. The only way to keep this particular thing from happening is to have tournament standardized dice. There are all kinds of ways to make a dice weighted, drill out the one, but in some heavy something, green stuff and paint, viola its 6's.

    That being said there are always douchebags that game the system. I cant imagine its fun for them to win that way and if they loose...I urinate on your grave sir.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh my, it didnt like my AIM thing, its Jayromandell..

      Delete
  43. Just Name the Fool! You know he trolls the net on most of these sites and when he see's his name that will stop him from doing it and make other cheaters think twice doing it!
    BTW why don't big tourneys provide dice for the players to use ? That will eliminate a lot of headaches he'll look at Vegas lol! I don't play tournaments due it brings out the douche bag out of people.
    Oh yea back to my point....Name the fool!

    ReplyDelete
  44. My question to the community is this:

    How does the cheater 'come back' from this? I agree that there should be some sort of punishment, but I have seen first hand how this can be THE END of wargaming for a person, which I don't agree with. Many are in a rush to vilify and punish this guy, and to some extent he deserves it, but if we push him completely out, there is no method for him to return. People are stupid and make stupid mistakes, but we as a community should be very careful with witch hunts, remember it takes as least one other person to play a game.

    ReplyDelete
  45. The way you guys carry on about this you would think its as bad as murdering school children. At the end of the day it is just a game and a little common sense and human decency are in order :)

    ReplyDelete
  46. I know the player in question having played against him for years. That die was indeed bought from a bin at a local store and in fact we might even know who the prankster was who put it there (but can not be sure) .
    I am sure the prankster had no idea something so silly would blow up like this, I guess he figured it would get caught in a local game and people would get a laugh off of it. Instead it traveled to a tournament and screwed a person's weekend.
    You are doing the right thing not to the name the player, he is telling the truth. That's why he was not ejected and was emotional. in my opinion your post is waaaay over board man.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ohhh so just some Fun?

      Nice Story -.-
      How about we have some Fun
      You Tell his Name & we will have Fun Letting the World know?

      Delete
    2. And then you anon above give us a picture of yourself naked and we post it on the interweb! How about that?
      You are about to have fun by humiliating someone. And that for some kind of sick amusement, because you weren't even playing against the guy!

      Delete
  47. Did Beerczar win either of his first 2 games at the event? If so those should have been changed to losses also. Safe to assume he cheated in those games. If he cheated in this event he has probably cheated in the past & will probably do so again in the future. Any1 check if he measures movement front 2 back as well? If you paid $50-100 to play in a tournament would you want to play against this guy?

    ReplyDelete
  48. LOL Pretty hilarious that this guys sig is "They call me loaded."

    ReplyDelete
  49. Thats good to hear that it was an accident/prank. I only ever buy dice cubes, but maybe that's cheating too!

    I remember a few months ago the were posts on this very site about dice rolling and how the dice with rounded corners we almost all use do not roll truly average and have number bias (at least that's what I took away from the post).

    Now hopefully we can put the tar and feathers away and get back to what really matters. Playing great games of 40k :)

    ReplyDelete
  50. a cheater is a cheater and it's not fair for ruining your game so name him and shame him
    once i used to play with a friend of mine and i never won a single game we played many games (WFB & W40k)
    but one day i was told by another friend of mine not to trust him as when he rolls the dice he roll's them behind terrain
    on the board so his opponent wont see all the dice and when he start counting he flips the lowest dice to a higher number with his finger tips (those behind the terrain)
    because he was my friend i trusted him and did not check all the dice but once i was told about this i caught him on the act i never played with him again and the friendship went out the window

    i wold like to say to the blog owner well done and keep up the good work

    ReplyDelete
  51. Just put all dice in a pot and share it. Nice coincidence that he seen the dice in question for sale before the game. Why are they even selling weighted dice at this event. like selling ballberings at a paintball match, its just asking for trouble.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Altman seemed a bit of a primadonna in his reaction; somewhat over the top in fact, but perhaps heavily coloured by anger and frustration.

    The guy was caught 'allegedly' cheating until intent and forethought is proven categorically. until then, needless to say the rule of law still applies, as Marlow rightly points out. Excessive knee-jerk responses, naming and shaming etc although understandable is ugly at best and slanderous or defamatory at worst, until such time as in impartial investigation determines otherwise.
    The man was rightly banned from play on the day, I would personally agree that the whole tournament would have suitable reprimand also, but only if his gaming kit was inspected for other possible infringements of sportsmanship. But, in the absence of a universal governing code or body linking all TOs its up to the individual TO to rule on the matter in an impartial manner - end of story.

    To draw upon the parallels of motor sport, points or places can be docked, trophies taken away or race/season bans imposed for foul play but life time bans are reserved for heinous and/or repeat behaviour

    ReplyDelete
  53. Can you imagine how fun games would be if we all used these dice?? Lol

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Im actually gonna try this with a friend. We want to see how a game would go with perfect rolling

      Delete
    2. Be sure to get ones which are weighted to roll one's --> for those all important leadership tests (because night goblins aren't that easily frightened ;) )

      Delete
    3. Nothing would Ever die
      Thats like Not playeing :D

      Delete
    4. But the idea is VERY intriguing....

      Delete
  54. Wow guys i understand the seriousness of what happened at the tourny and i don't abide cheaters either but i think most of the posts have gone overboard. If he is a habitual cheater he got caught and will learn. If and i do say if it was just a simple mistake like he grabbed a hand full of dice out of a bucket at a store and just had the one loaded dice out then naming him etc. Is uncalled for. Even the reactions are taking it a bit far. Wouldn't you all like to be given the benefit of the doubt if the tables were reversed. He who is without sin cast the first stone! If he is a habitual cheater than those that need to know ie. Those most likely to play against him probably already know who he is the rest need to back off. Take the article as a warning about loaded dice and how to spot them not a tar and feather a guy who got caught with one.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Wow guys i understand the seriousness of what happened at the tourny and i don't abide cheaters either but i think most of the posts have gone overboard. If he is a habitual cheater he got caught and will learn. If and i do say if it was just a simple mistake like he grabbed a hand full of dice out of a bucket at a store and just had the one loaded dice out then naming him etc. Is uncalled for. Even the reactions are taking it a bit far. Wouldn't you all like to be given the benefit of the doubt if the tables were reversed. He who is without sin cast the first stone! If he is a habitual cheater than those that need to know ie. Those most likely to play against him probably already know who he is the rest need to back off. Take the article as a warning about loaded dice and how to spot them not a tar and feather a guy who got caught with one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for having one of the few intelligent replies here.

      Delete
  56. So I can fucking swear?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Why don't we just burn him at the stake and be done with it?

    Joking btw guys. Don't be getting ideas..

    ReplyDelete
  58. I must have cheat-dice because I always roll 1's. Damn wish I figured it out sooner!

    ReplyDelete
  59. Replies
    1. No it's not... It's Charles Vasquez. Don't try to cover it up.

      Delete
  60. I am actually surprised that more people aren't using weighted dice. Seeing that GW sells crappy opaque dice with rounded edges. It wouldn't take much to drill out a pip and put a little lead in the hole, repaint to pip and you have a die that's more biased then your others. It's a really good thing that most people are playing to have fun. A WAAC kind of player + a really nice Tournament prize might be too much of a temptation to pass up.

    A couple of weighted dice that look like the rest of an opaque set and mixed in might not arouse much suspicion. Makes one want to invest in some casino quality dice...

    ReplyDelete
  61. Not sure what the law is in the States, but in the UK this would count as fraud. Especially if he'd won a prize! Hey dude...welcome to the Wormwood Scrubs Gaming Club!!

    ReplyDelete
  62. Come on really that one dice happens to come out on the role off....that was planned had to be, should be banned from tournaments for sure. i see no gray area in this. Cheaters in the old day had there hands cut off it's the same act as stealing.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Hi guys. Well it happens everywhere. Even in Malaysia. Happened to me during my 2nd match at Gamecon (Our local games convention). Imagine IG with a handful of those. N after complaining and investigating, the player already qualified to top 8.

    But over here the community is really small, so we decided to ban him from future tournaments.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I love the amount of hate being thrown around about this, but I feel that the Beakycon TO's made the right call. I know the guy who this happened to. I go to the shop where the die was sold. It probably was not a prankster, but rather the store owner doesn't even know about loaded dice.

    The store owner picks up dice that people leave behind and puts them in a random bin selling these dice for incredibly cheap. The player in question knew nothing about the die being weighted. The guy is honest to goodness not at fault here. It could easily happen to anyone. Blood of Kittens has exploded something small into something big.

    I honestly feel really bad for the guy. He would never resort to these tactics. If he really wanted to be loaded don't you think he'd have the full set? He only had that one die.

    ReplyDelete
  65. The fact of him knowingly cheating is fairly irrelevant, it did happen and he is responsible for it. If you borrow your friends car and get pulled over for a busted tail light you "didnt know about" will you still get a ticket? yes you will (most likely) The fact of the matter is the cheater is responsible for his dice and making sure he doesnt bring anything to the table that can be considered cheating. If he just bought it out of a bucket 5 minutes ago then he should roll it to make sure it isnt loaded, do any of us do this? no probably not, but that does not change the fact that we are RESPONSIBLE for what we bring to the table. I agree with him being DQ'd and were I the TO I would ban him from the rest of the tournament especially if he was a friend of mine, I have higher expectations for those I call friend. Maybe even ask everyone at the end (since they are the ones paying to be there) how they would like a dice cheater dealt with because ultimately its your tournament players that are effected and if a majority will not come back if he is there, I would not risk my tourny just so a buddy could play, he would be ass out. *principle* was mentioned earlier, its something that is going the way of chivalry, a lost art.

    If I knew who the cheater was I would still play against him and give him a chance to redeem himself but I would first expect him to roll all his dice for me to ensure none were loaded. He deserves that kind of scrutiny for either A) being a cheater or B) being too ignorant to realize he had a cheating dice.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For multiple reasons what you are saying makes no sense. If someone forgets a rule that occurs in 40k does that make them a cheater? No.

      This guy didn't know he had a loaded dice for a long time. He had never used the die before. He just happened to grab it on this game. He told me himself that he had never used it in any of the game at the GT.

      So let's say you bought a cube of dice at an event and one of the dice was manufactured improperly so it always rolled 6's. Are you now and always a cheater? No you aren't. Its not your fault you didn't know.

      Delete
    2. Forgetting a rule and using a cheating device are two different things. You are responsible for your gear and what you bring with you. Saying oops does not excuse the fact that you blundered.

      If you forget that you get to reroll your seize the initiative roll (for whatever reason) in a tourny and your opponent starts moving things in turn one do you get to say "oops I get to reroll that lets back up" no you progress and you miss out. Same with the dice, if he is innocent then take that approach saying "wow I am so sorry I brought that, that is my mistake, I forfeit the match and here lets go through all my dice I have with me to make sure I don't have any other mistakes" or something along those lines to be accommodating. Not cry and ask to not tell anyone, that makes you look very guilty. If you man up to your mistake and say "I royally screwed up" and take ownership of the mistake it makes the incident easier to cope with.

      When I have bought sealed containers of dice I roll them a few times and set the 6's and 1's aside and roll the others, that's just part of my superstitious ways.

      I commend you for sticking up for your friend, but ignorance of the offense is sill no excuse.

      Delete
    3. How is it different? The rules should be followed to the letter. You can't prove that your opponent "forgot" to remind you about some effect that MUST go off, but it still MUST go off so it falls on both players to remember regardless of whether it is to your detriment or not. Most people don't consider this cheating, but it is in fact still cheating.

      He was freaked out about what was going on. He had no idea what was happening and that was a quick and sudden shock. Some people react differently when put in a situation like that. If you are put in a life threatening situation your emotions can run out of control and you lose it. He apologized to the guy he 'played' against, but the one who was offended scoffed him off.

      I seriously doubt you do that. You are just making a point for the sake of it.

      He isn't my friend, but simply an acquaintance, but I know it wasn't his fault and that it was simply a mistake on his part that he knew nothing about.

      My point isn't that he cheated or not, my point is that everyone needs to cool down, because it wasn't his fault. He had a loaded die by sheer chance and he wasn't intentionally using it with the intent of it being loaded.

      Delete
  66. I forget rules all the time and I am not allowed to go back and do rerolls I forgot about, or special rules I didnt remember I get told " well remember next time" and that is kinda my point with the person in this story. He got caught with a "cheat" dice, if he was honestly not trying to cheat, then that sucks, that sucks really bad, but I bet he checks every dice he buys now. Just like we are responsible to know our rules we are responsible for our equipment.

    I am not calling for the lynch mob on him just saying that because he got caught in that instance and in that tourney it would be fair (to me in my opinion) that he not be allowed in that tournament because of said incident. That would be the consequence to that action in my world, could he come to other tournaments? yeah sure, will I give him a rash of shit and ask him to roll his dice then jokingly tell him he cant use the ones that rolled sixes? probably cause I enjoy a good laugh, but he would also know that it would be in jest because I would have a smile on my face.

    My friends still give me shit about mixing up that daemon princes got daemon weapons (ironically they can now) in the last edition, I had never used a DP before and had it pointed out to me that they were awesome, a simple misread of the dex (over excited too fast of a read) lead to a misinterpretation of the rule for DP's, granted I only got one game in where it actually came into play before I found out I was totally in the wrong. I immediately went to my friend I had played and told him it was an absolute win for him (regardless of how ineffective my DP was because I didnt know how to use him) and how profusely sorry I was offering to never play a DP against him again while saying I was a self proclaimed moron and well I still can be(there goes my argument doesn't it?).

    In reference to the dice, yes I do, do that. I believe that if I roll an extreme with one dice I wont on the next roll so I set it aside and use a different one whether it be a 1 or a 6. Thats just my superstitious ways.

    Bottom line for me is if the person with the dice was not cheating, then he will be able to laugh with people when he gets challenged by it and he will own up to it and offer to let people see his current dice are not loaded in future games. Thats my 2 cents and I am spent.

    ReplyDelete
  67. What I don't get is he obviously cheated by using a loaded die, and the tournament let him keep playing? Someone getting caught doing something like this, and being allowed to keep on playing after a slap on the wrist for one game sounds like a crooked-ass tournament, or the guy was friends with someone high up in Con that let his bud keep playing.

    The guy might not have meant to do it, and if so he probably feels worse than if he had cheated, but nowhere I have ever played (from weekend store tournaments to conventions) would have allowed him to keep playing, even if it meant shuffling the games up to balance the loss of a player.

    Jambat

    ReplyDelete
  68. The amount of butthurt stemming from this article is making me hazy. It's been a long time since I've last read such self-righteous, pious wall of text. Good thing you haven't slapped the dude on the spot while he was sobbing. Should've thrown the crooked die in his face. Make him crawl in front you while you're at, that will surely alleviate your rage.

    The guy cheated, intentionally or not, got caught and disqualified and if you are a mature person that should be it. This whole naming and shaming, obvious anger management issues of Altmann and general witch hunting makes me sick and turns me off the competitive side of this game. Is that how rational people act? Bashing a person without a definitive proof of his malicious intent?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How's that high horse feel? Bet it's goooooood.

      Delete
    2. If by high horse you mean going against this hivemind witch hunt and trying to understand both sides of the issue, in particular some dude we know nothing about but we are ready to berate him in public then sure, call it what you want.

      Delete
  69. well' if he's a damn kid, you can look over ot. Else he is cheating with other people's money and prizes, and you must call him for what he is, a damn thief. Caught in the act, clumsy , but always a thief. No mercy no forgiveness!!

    ReplyDelete
  70. The cheater got what he deserved.

    If, and I stress the if he was innocent, he should have been the one to tell the organizer, and dq himself. The fact that the other player had to do it kills his accountability.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Name and shame? No mercy? What kind of antisocial BS is this? Ever heard of presumtion of innocence?

    Where I come from, you'd get sued if you called his name, and very rightfully so.

    ReplyDelete
  72. I think Altman bought the dice he saw earlier then planted it on his oponent to get the easy win :-)
    Im still suprised that no one just has a pool of dice for the table and both share that.

    ReplyDelete
  73. If he'd not got caught and gone on to win do u think he'd have had the honesty to return his prize?
    Didn't something similar happen at ETC a cpl of years ago?
    It happens. But where prizes are involved it could be called a crime!

    ReplyDelete
  74. First time you get a warning.
    Second time you die.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Does anybody know the cheater's address? I would like to send his folks a letter informing them I am very disappointed they brought this filth like him into the world. Also I think his mug should be on BOLS, Bok, and GW so good people everywhere can avoid games with him.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Those are not the only weighted die there are out there. As a long time visitor to conventions I've seen several of those on dice stores.

    There are also dice that have an additional 6 instead of a 1. They don't roll 6s all the time, but more often than anything else.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Yes, punish him. but not for life. thats to harsh.

    But what about the store? I wuld ban the store for bringing in those dice where they can do so mutch damage. Its like giving small children guns and knifes to play with. Somebody is going to get hurt.

    ReplyDelete
  78. There is no evidence that this guy intended to cheat and at least two people that know him personally are saying its not an intentional incident. The punishment was meted out and it's time to move on. Hopefully the guy will continue to game in the hobby and doesn't let this one bad game spoil his enjoyment.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Ebay, Loaded Dice. They are meant for magic tricks you know... NOT tournaments with prizes that people FLY to attend to!!!

    ReplyDelete

 
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