Have we found a way to make these stinkers cheesy?!

Hey everyone, happy to see Faeit 212 back up and kicking! Reecius here from Frontline Gaming to talk about some of the most maligned units in 6th ed 40K and how they can not only be good, but cheese whiz good!? I add the question mark because I almost don't believe it myself!

So, let me set the stage. I was chatting with a customer of ours whom we just completed a beautiful commissioned Fallen Dark Angels army for, pictures of which you can see here, here and here.

In said commission, is a unit of 8 Warp Talons, pictured below.


Handsome devils, aren't they?

Yes, but typically considered to be sub par performers where it matters. And for this type of performance anxiety they unfortunately have not yet developed a little blue pill.

Warp Talons hit hard but their crippling lack of grenades combined with the need to swing first, high point cost, relative squishiness (a bolter kills them as easily as any marine) and competition with the all mighty Hell Turkey means they rarely see table time.

Our client brought up an interesting point that I had not yet considered and that led to a domino effect of horror in my puny little brain.

Use the Grimoire (which states can be used on any Friendly unit with at least one model with the Daemon rule) on them with either the MoT or MoN and all of a sudden they become REALLY resilient. Combo this with Fateweaver as the Daemon HQ (who IMO  is one of the best HQs in that book anyway) and they have a very high probability of it going off. That means either a T5 3++ unit or a T4 2++ unit....all with Jump Packs and Lightening Claws....yikes. Who needs Grenades with those kinds of stats?

But then I started thinking, what else has the Daemon rule in the CSM dex? Possessed, Mutilators, Oblits, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, the Defiler, obviously the Daemon Prince and....by all that is holy....that mother #&%*ing Hell Turkey!!!!! Gah!
Nooooooooooooo!!!

I already hate that model more than Osama Bin Laden, why in the name of the Emperor can it possibly get a 3++ on top of all the other inane rules it has?!

I mean, 2++ Mutilators, Possessed, and Warp Talons or 3++ Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Defilers and Daemon Princes I can live with as I would like to see more of them on the table. But that rat bastard Hell Turkey doesn't need any more favors!!

The only consolation I had in all of this existential anguish was the fact that there are half a dozen units in the Daemon book that are actually a lot scarier with the Grimroire but hey, we've all got our crosses to bear and mine comes with a giant space turkey on it!

So what do you all think about this nonsense? Cool to buff otherwise under-powered units to the point where we will actually see them on the table or just one more way to leverage already powerful units?

41 Comments:

  1. Thisvhas been mentioned by me on other boards weeks ago...

    However: mark of tzeentch does not allow a invul save better than 3+ its written in the mark entry of the chaos space marines codexs.

    Mark of nurgle all the way then.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would have thought that it meant the Mark of Tzeentch couldn't boost an Invulnerable Save any better than 3+ without factoring in external bonuses like the Grimoire.

      Delete
  2. Its not low ap that makes warp talons suck it massed fire. you can have a 3++, but it makes little difference when your saving vs bolters. Even taking a 2++ vs 2+ is pointless vs massed fire.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He did state that you need Fateweaver for rerolls. Which you may snub but does in fact reduce wounds taken regardless.

      Delete
    2. Fateweaver only allows one reroll per turn, not that great actually

      Delete
    3. I thought it was all saves? Missed that change.

      Delete
    4. Big Pappa Chicken took a bit of a "hit" in that regard.

      Delete
    5. The Staff of Tomorrow grants one re-roll per turn, but being a daemon of Tzeentch allows him to re-roll saving throws of 1.

      Delete
  3. Not to mention, you're going to have to blow points on Daemon allies, and most of these "stinker" units are extremely expensive anyways. Take the Defiler for example. It's the only unit with a Battlecannon available to any MEQ army, and can be an absolute beast in close combat when given a Power Scourge. But this all comes at 195+ points where you can easily purchase a squad of 3 Obliterators for only 15 points more. It was hard to justify the price of a Defiler in the last codex when it only cost 150 points, and now I wouldn't even give it a second glance.

    It really is a damn shame to see how little things have improved for CSM after the release of the new codex. All of our new toys are worthless and Nurgle still reigns supreme.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. THIS! So crazy that the same lists in 5th are still going for 6th. Only difference is swapping lashes for Heldrakes.

      Delete
    2. Honestly, miximg with daemons can be great though and offer new lists....also don't sleep on slannesh, ability to ignore cover and take FnP, they can be excellent units over nurgle.

      Delete
    3. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! nurgle is a fat prick, slannesh is a gay emo an tzeench is a bookworm. Lol khorne brings alot to the table particularly in the daemons codex. Skarbrand is arguably the most killy character in the whole game, everyone shits their pants when they see 2 or more bloodthirsters and bloodletters rock considering they charge with 2 S5 ap3 attacks for only 10pts.

      Delete
    4. Swarmlord with Iron Arm wins. Khorne armies can put down some serious charges, though.

      Delete
  4. Honestly, I wouldn't bother putting a 30 point upgrade on the Heldrake, which is already one of the toughest units in the game. The real question is, what unit do you give the grimoire? My call would be a daemon prince with mark of nurgle and wings, buffing a unit of mutilators with mark of nurgle. Take a unit or two of plaguebearers and you've got a decent ally.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Still need an HQ as the DP is heavy in daemons,so add in some more points for a Herald, adds up quick

      Delete
    2. Nope, they're HQ. They switch to HS only if you take a Greater Daemon of the same god.

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    4. Melon, I think you're confused, the Daemon Prince is an HQ in the Daemons book. If you take a Greater Daemon, the Daemon Prince of that god becomes a heavy support choice, but the other 3 are still HQ choices, so you could for example:

      Take Fateweaver and a Daemon Prince of Nurgle as your HQ's, then 3 Daemon Princes of Tzeentch with Daemons as your primary.

      Take 2 Daemon Princes as your HQ's as your primary.
      Or
      Take a Daemon Prince as your mandatory allied HQ, as I suggested above XD

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. Lol I was indeed confused, thanks for clarifing. Duh me

      Delete
  5. My hope is that we have a bland codex because it was the experimental codex for true 6th edition. Therefore, the "higher ups" did not want to add anything that sounded insanely cool or powerful. The heldrake fits into this because it has so little options that on paper, without thinking about it too much, it sounds like a "decent" unit at best (Until you play a few games with it).

    So my actual hope is this will be balanced by getting one of the later supplament releases with a great set of new rules to coouter some of the bland units in the CSM codex (such as chosen).

    BTW some of the daemon ally strategies mentioned in this article are pretty cool. However, one cannot give a high point cost to a unit because a codex that is not even released yet has units that could possibly ally with CSM making that unit stronger SOMETIMES (you still have to roll for that Grimoire ability)

    ReplyDelete
  6. Fateweaver is one of the worst choices in my opinion, other than that the grimoir is awsome, but has cost me as many games as it has won me......that -1 to your save will have that unit wiped in one turn.....it happens about twice a game average. So no, not broken in the least....doing the grimoir on a helldrake is still preferable to using it on those sub par units above.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Another issue I have is as takng daemons as allies is that fayeweaver cannot take gifts so you need a daemon prince also in your allies to be able to take a grimoir, getting pricey quick for a gimmick play.

      Delete
    2. IIRC Grimoire with a reroll is like 88.89% chance of success, so with Fatey it is pretty darn reliable, failing 1-2 times every 2 games.

      Still, it works better on flesh hounds than warp talons or mutilators, so the question is begged, why not just take a unit of 20 flesh hounds and really spend lavishly on your allies lol.

      Delete
    3. I agree, and that's how I do it.... fleash hounds are much better

      Delete
    4. "so the question is begged, why not just take a unit of 20 flesh hounds and really spend lavishly on your allies lol."

      because here is a nice way to make a naff unit into a decent unit, instead of making a decent unit into an insane unit!

      it's not awlays fun to play with or against insane units....but it's always fun to with or against a naff unit that is unexpectedly become decent!

      Delete
    5. Unfortunately there isn't much other in the way of psychic defence in the daemons codex other than fldogs. And while they are good they are no way broken, so to make them survivable is important, now doing that to the helldrake, I see your point

      Delete
  7. Well the main problem (that appears for me atleast) is that those things are very very expensive.
    An Tzeentch herold for prescience is kinda cheap though and I supposse is very nice in combination with things like Forgefiends.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Tzeentch herald is definitely one of the best allied options for CSM. If you leave it ML1 and take Prescience, stick it in a unit of horrors and stick them behind an aegis, you can cast prescience where you need it, the herald can man the quad gun, and the whole thing costs like 235 points, while also being scoring. Useful for buffing all kinds of shooty backfield units.

      Delete
  8. Ouch, this even comes close to being broken! The level "playable" is somewhere between "unplayable" and "broken" and those units aren't there yet and that's a big percentage of the total units in the codex. I really hope that people will boycott Chaos Space Marines, so GW can realise what a mistake they did.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think the time has passed for boycotting chaos space marines, there's actually quite a few players (or enough to give the impression) who've embraced the new codex. Sorry

      Delete
    2. You are confusing the army "chaos space marines" with the army "chaos space marines allied with daemons". Everything this article says on using chaos space marines REQUIRES allies.

      I think most people who complain about the csm codex argue that it is bland as a STANDALONE codex.

      Delete
  9. I actually liie the new codex, and I believe it stands up well to other 6th ed codices, not to the powerhouse 5th ed ones, but lets face it, those 5th ed will be redone soon

    ReplyDelete
  10. Generally i don't understand all the hate that is sent the warp talons way, but then I'm not a tourney player and i love fluff, just sayin'

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. I think generally the hate on the warp talons is the BLIND rule they were given. The blind rule works cool for things like weapons, where the rule does not act as the main feature of the weapon, but as a nice little side affect if the enemy fails an initiative test.

      With warp talons, Blind was given to them as a MAIN strategy, where it is implied they must rely upon that rule in order to deepstrike "safely". The frustration is that Blind is totally unreliable as a main strategy. It would have been different if enemy units auto failed the blind test, but as it stands, most armies only need to roll below a 5, and some below a 6, in order to pass this initiative test.

      If the authors intent was to have a cool way to get warp talons to deepstrike safely (without getting shot to death next turn), he should have been more creative about it.

      All the other features of warp talons are just fine. If a full squad of them got into close combat with anything that isnt a terminator, that enemy squad is completely screwed.

      Delete
    3. I always tend towards footslogging armies and have a friend base that plays in a similar way, the points cost for me is largely irrelevant since we always bring the most powerful units we can with super high points cost (and still keeping well with in the doubled FOC). The fella i play most often last time fielded 25 thunderwolf cavalry, all with storm shields!!! An insane points cost in it's own right and a bane in my life constantly. But in return whenever i field Kharn with 20 Khorne Berzerkers, Abaddon with 10 terminators, a Slaanesh-esque jump pack lord with 10 Slaanesh-esque warp talons or all of the above, he gets the sweats as i reap a brutal tally. So taking all this into account plus the fact we (of course) play for fun, warp talons are a very entertaining and lethal unit to have................in my opinion

      Delete
    4. OK, we have jump infantry with two power weapons that can re-roll to wound and have three attacks on the charge and a range of 18" roughly, even with the worst rolling going, for 160 points.

      Oh, and they're T4 with a 3+ save. I would love something like that in the Daemons codex. Anything with some flipping armour.

      Instead, we get a unit that can do the same for 45 points a model - nearly 50% more! That has a 6+ save (that will never, ever be used) no re-roll to wound, no offensive grenades, no choice of an initiative upgrade to hit first, the same toughness and a much larger base for cover purposes and none of the mobility of jump infantry.

      Warp talons are lovely. Heck, they're better elites than most of what's in the Daemons book slots.

      Delete
  11. So, if you're using CSM as your primary, then you'll need:

    1. Fateweaver as your allied HQ.
    2. Something cheap as your allied Troops (Horrors or Plague Bearers, most likely).
    3. A Tzeentch Daemon Prince to load the Grimoire on, because that's the only non-HQ character who can take it (Fatey makes them Heavy Support).

    And this is all before you start buying the expensive CSM stuff that you want to buff. And even then, there's still a 1/9 chance that your super CSM Daemon unit will actually have a worse Invul save in the end. It's not terrible odds, but it will happen more often than you'd like.

    This might work with Daemons as the primary and CSM as the allies, but at that point you might as well be using the Grimoire on something in the Daemon book anyway, like Flesh Hounds or something.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This,
      The daemons as primary with one of these units as fun fluff, or surprise goodness is the better way to go.

      Delete
  12. Latest Mp3 Tunes, Mp3 Musics, Mp3 Songs Tunes, Mp3 Music Tunes, Funny Tunes, Funny Mp3 Music, Indian Tunes, Lol Tunes, Music of Songs, Bollywood Tunes, Latest Bollywood Music Tunes, Entertainment Pictures, Entertainment Fun Mania, Entertainment Articles, Entertainment Latest updates, Bollywood News updates, Hollywood News updates and all Hot Current Affairs in only one Social Website
    hotcurrentaffairs.com

    ReplyDelete

 
Top
Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...