Time for the battle report from the weekend. The puppet master issue, if you want more details on the rule conflicts, you can follow it on the link below. It was a good game against a strong opponent. That dang Fateweaver is tough with Grimoire. Not to mention flying Daemon Princes of Tzeentch with Invisibility and Puppet Master.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/06/rules-differing-between-digital.html


17 Comments:

  1. That was a good battle report to watch. Sorta a bummer that the Puppet Master used shield-less Wave Serpents as if they had shields. Totally changed to game.

    Puppet Master should be only allowed to shoot conventional weapons- I'm not sure I agree with the power firing off the shields of Wave Serpents. Any time one psychic power can singlehandedly destroy another army just sucks. I'll have to test the power in my games- I've not had that bad of luck against it.

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    1. I can't see anywhere that puppet master can deactivate your shields, and that's a prerequisite for using them as a weapon.

      If you've already fired your shield, then the shield is already deactivated and so he still can't deactivate it (which is a prerequisite for firing it).

      Wording of the pivoting rule seems irrelevant to puppet master affecting serpent shields, as the above shows it can't use them as weapons anyway.

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  2. You should have at least 2 squadrons of 3 war walkers with either 2 scatter lasers or 1 scatter laser/1 star cannon (to handle termies). They are now 1 of the must have unit in an Eldar army. Able to battle focus and having power field are the improvement to them on the new codex. Not to mention they are now BS4 too! So can work independently without any guide/prescience. Trust me, go ahead and try them. ;)

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  3. Nafka, was your Daemon-playing friend using the Warp Storm table this game? I'm just curious on how effective it was, if at all, during your game. I didn't catch any mention to it being used, or being effective.

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    1. I dont think I lost anything to it this game. Last game though it was very devastating against my dark eldar.

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  4. Puppet Master allows you to pivot an enemy walker to shoot with it per the FAQ, but you cannot pivot any other kind of vehicle.

    I also agree that you probably can't shoot their serpent shield if they've already shot it.

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  5. I wonder if anrakyr the traveller's "mind in the machine" would cause the same havok...

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  6. NAFTKA, I commented early when you played a 2000pt game. I see you went for a more main-stream point level. As a veteran Eldar player, Eldrad is no longer a "must" take, and especially at 1750 he is far to expensive for what he does now. 2 Farseers with guide primaris, and the primaris "guide" from divination, totaling 4 guides would have been very effective. As -JoE- already commented, war walker squadrons are a must have in this edition. I have had amazing luck with scatter laser/bright lance load outs. Shoot the scatter laser first and it twin links the bright lance (winning). Your 3-man reaper units aren't going to be effective at this point value, I would recommend a 5-7 man unit in a serpent. Good luck. Also he must have gotten really lucky getting puppet master on both his daemons...or does he get to choose? that is pretty cheesy.

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    1. he has some amazing luck with this powers.

      I was using Eldrad because I was trying to test out him with my harlies.

      I am getting more games in, so a lot of what is being fielded is to test certain aspects of what I have.

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    2. I am starting to settle down, but I am testing something else later tonight in another 1750 game. If my opponent agrees to it, I will do another battle report.

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  7. I guess I'm getting pesky because we already had a little discussion about big versus small games in the comment section of one of your Youtube videos but since you seem dissatisfied with trying a smaller game this time, I'd like to ask you: Don't you think that those problems you contribute to small games happen in big games too? With 2000 or 2500 points, what would have stopped the Daemon player in this case to just spam even mire flying Daemon Princes?

    Double FOCs allow people to spam the same stuff they would have spammed in a smaller game, which in my experience only means bigger lists (and thus games) are just more of the same, just with less space and less reason to maneuver.

    Would your 2000 or 2500 point army have contained a lot of stuff that easily would have gotten rid of 5 or 6 flying Monsters dominating/commandeering your units?

    I dare to claim the game would basically have been the same, just drawn out and prolonged a bit. What broke your army wasn't the point size or even a rock/paper/scissors type mismatch but the fact that the both of you played the psychic power wrong and that would have been the same at any point cost.

    At 2500 points you probably would have had 2 defense lines with AA guns manned by Reaper Exarchs, right? Sure they would have been useful against flying Monsters but you still would have had to deal with the 2++ save, could only have shot at two of them at a time and he would probably have used Dominate to kill the AA gun crews first.

    I might be wrong with my speculating in the last paragraph, but even then my point still stands that spam is effective at all point levels and game sizes and it creates the same problems at all point levels and game sizes.

    Because of that, I think the rock/paper/scissors problem can even be bigger in bigger games. Reducing the influence of movement and maneuvering by filling up the deployment zones, reduces the influence of the player on the game. When the players are just throwing dice at each other and have little opportunity to do clever things with movement and exploiting weapon ranges, army list mismatches become even more influential and insurmountable. The mere fact that you have more stuff left when you lose something in a big army does little to mitigate that in my opinion, especially since you will usually also lose stuff faster when facing a bigger army.

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    1. With other words: A unit is useful when it either kills something or does something else like holding/contesting an objective or securing linebreaker points. For that it needs mobility.

      The more you remove mobility from a game (And I think that is what you do when you cram two 2500 points armies on to a gaming table that originally was scaled for 1500 point games. Especially since 1500 points back in the olden days were a lot less models than 1500 points today, as far as I know. It certainly was when I started playing in 3rd Edition.), the more it becomes about killing stuff.

      Since some army builds are better at killing stuff than others, mismatches become even bigger when the less killy army has less chance to keep out of LOS or out of range.

      With other words again (I know, I'm annoying but I really want to get this point across.):
      Killy units are usually always good at killing certain things and less good at killing certain other thing.
      Thanks to Mission Objectives and Linebreaker Points mobile units are usually useful no matter what opponent they face, as long as they get to use their mobility. They don't rely on direct interaction with the opposing units to be effective because they can earn points without even trying to shoot something.

      So I think you can say that killy units are more likely to meet a mismatched opponent than mobile units.

      Thus a game size that reduces the worth of mobility and increases the worth of "killyness", increases the risk of rock/paper/scissors type mismatches and reduces the ability of the disadvantages player to overcome the odds with clever maneuvering and with "playing the mission, not the opponent".

      That is a wise mantra but hard to do when you can't go anywhere without being shot to pieces.

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    2. Damn spellcheck. I meant "disadvantaged player" and in the first part of my diatribe I of course meant "what would have stopped the player from spamming", but that one wasn't spellcheck's mistake, I admit, hehe.

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    3. PS:
      Of course I can't and don't want to convince you of playing any other point level than the one that is most fun to you. I just think you are a bit unfair towards smaller games when you say that they have a bigger rock/paper/scissors problem than bigger games.

      As an skilled and successful Dark Eldar player you certainly know very well how to use mobility to your advantage and how to "play the mission, jadda jadda", which is why I am surprised that you don't seem to like the elbow space and room to breathe (or to make use of Night Shields) smaller games offer.

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    4. I am not trying to argue against smaller games. I personally get in plenty of them. I am just giving my opinion of them after playing this game for the last 15 years vs larger games.

      I used to be a big proponent of smaller games 1250-1750 and avoided the larger games. Of course that was before lost on me sometime during early 5th edition.

      My list design at smaller points often is based upon taking advantage of less options for my opponents. Especially in an tournament style list.

      Its not really an argument here. Its great if you love smaller games, or games at whatever point level you like. Commentary at the end of a battle report is just my take on what happened.

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  8. Just watched the 1st half of the video. Really looked as if you were trying to get the wave serpents destroyed. With the range and movement they have, a column up the short table edge would have been your best 1st move. I believe you could have kited him into mistakes. You're not going to win turn 1. Pre-measure! As soon as I saw your 1st move, I knew it was over. You moved right into his kill zone! Only marines can survive such poor movements. I understand you are just now learning Eldar, but I would have thought better of a DE player. I believe (based on his 1st moves) a couple turns of patient cat & mouse would have seen those DPs isolated and destroyed, then the movement of the serpents can easily redeploy your force to deal with the left overs. Ya just can't move like you move your imperial stuff. Shame on you. ;) Hope you have beaten him since.

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    1. He has not beaten me since, of course we have also not had a game since.

      We will see how it goes next time, I think we will have both made some improvements to our lists and tactics.

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