In a recent game, something came up that does not normally happen, and that is the digital version (the psychic powers app) has an entire extra part of a sentence in its description of how it works. So while during the games we did not go into it, after all I was reading the same material he was, afterwards during discussions it became quite the quandary. It was the primary factor in the devastation of my eldar forces, simply because two flying daemon princes with puppet master kept on taking control of my wave serpents and destroying very much any unit it shot at.


So whats is the difference in the rule. This is out of the Rulebook
"The target immediately makes a shooting attack as if it was one of your models (this cannot target his own unit). After resolving the attack, the target shakes free of the psyker's control and immediately reverts to the owning players control. "

The digital app reads
"The target immediately makes a shooting attack as if it was one of your models (this cannot target his own unit, or itself in the case of blast weapons), and can pivot on the spot in order to select a target. After resolving the attack, the target shakes free of the psyker's control and immediately reverts to the owning players control, immediately returning to its original facing if pivoted. "

So of course we were playing with the digital version, and it was devastating to have my Wave Serpents just wiping out anything they shot at. There was no questioning it, until after the game (late in the game) when I was reading it. The power was just so strong.

While we did not go immediately to the FAQ's, I thought it was important that the FAQ's do deal with puppet master, and it effectively fixes the issue. (just do not point your shields at yourself).

So here is the FAQ. The pivoting only effects walkers the way I read this. The digital version of the rule really needs to be updated, as having two rule sets say different things, makes it much more difficult to figure out. Thoughts?

Q: Does the Puppet Master power allow the controlling psyker to
‘pivot’ an enemy Walker in order to select a target not currently in its
fire arc? (p423)
A: Yes, but the model is assumed to return to its original
facing when it reverts back to the owning player’s control.


61 Comments:

  1. Yes this clearly is a misprint, as only walkers are able to pivot in the shooting phase instead of only in the movement phase.

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  2. You can't pivot your own vehicles in the shooting phase so out feels odd to pivot someone else's

    Also I believe Primaris powers are the only ones that can be represented more than once per army. He shouldn't have two characters with puppet master as it's not a Primaris.

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    1. Interesting comment Dudds about only 1 power per army unless Primaris. I think if he rolls the power for both psychers, both have the power.

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    2. From Page 418 in the BRB under Generating Psychic Powers "It should be noted that different Psykers in the same army can have the same psychic powers".

      While individual psykers cannot have the same power twice, two or more psykers can have the same power(s), including non-primaris powers.

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    3. This is not the case. Different Psykers may have the same powers, no restriction. Page 418 'generating psychic powers'.

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  3. I have been undrr thr assumption the best pro for purchasing their digital products is the ease with which they can be kept up to date. How does a company put out a FAQ and not update products that relates? Surely some individual is responsible for this work. Get your head out of your butt and do the job. Damn.

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  4. Unfortunately Natfka mate, I think it's a moot point in this case: the TL heavy weapons on a Wave Serpent are mounted in a turret so it has a 360 degree fire arc regardless of it's facing. Same with the other three Falcon-hulled vehicles in the codex. :(

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    1. Its actually quite a huge difference. Puppet mastering my vehicles for a scatter laser turret shots would of been just fine, minimal losses. It was with those scatter lasers twin linking everything, including the shields that was the issue.

      However, that was the second game facing this, but now that I am aware that the power does not rotate vehicles, massed slaughter from my own vehicles will not happen again.

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    2. Hmmmm. They can't use the scatter's new TL ability to benefit the shield attack because the vehicle can only make a single shooting attack, not two. It's either the scatter laser and waste the TL benefit or the non-TL shield attack. "...makes a shooting attack..." just the one, singular.

      I'm not quite sure about the not rotating vehicles comment though mate?

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    3. is there anything to indicate that the shield does not have a 360 arc of fire? this is the direction of an energy field that uniformly surrounds the hull of the vehicle.

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    4. Yeah the rules for the serpent shield says it's hull mounted to the front.

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    5. I am 90% sure that a "shooting attack" is any weapons it can normally fire. So puppet master will let you use all of its guns. Either way he can't fire the shield if you did, as it doesn't refresh until your following turn.

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    6. No, "a shooting attack" is very specific. One attack. It doesn't say "May fire as if moved at xx speed/stationary" and in the absence of any modifiers or variables in the text "a shooting attack" is just that: one attack with a ranged weapon that shoots.

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    7. That is just wrong! A shooting attack is just a regular shooting attck and vehicles regulary shoot several weapons. Otherwise it really had to be stated "shoot a single weapon" or something similar explicit.

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  5. Hey Natfka. Mind you one more thing - he cannot shoot your Serpent Shields if you already had in your shooting phase (which I think you had done), as the shields are deactivated till the beginning of the Serpent's following turn. And as the rest of the readers is saying - you can never pivot a non-walker vehicle in the shooting phase (the only exception are our Vectored Engines) unless you're going flat-out forgoing your shooting.
    Good eye catching the digital mistake nonetheless.

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    1. Unfortunately dude, the wording for the power says that you can pivot a vehicle to select a target?

      It can only be referring to vehicles because the facing of infantry models has no impact on the game for shooting attacks.

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    2. The wording on the power's description may sometimes be confusing so you always need to seek confirmation with other rules. Only the walkers have the special rule that they can pivot in the shooting phase, and many people tend to forget that as well. And the wording is obviously mistaken, or simplified to the point of error. It's a shame GW makes such mistakes in their digital versions. Ruins the whole point of having them. GW makes whole bunch of mistakes in their codexes (or codices) recently (Shadow Weaver with Large Blast, etc.) so it's always good to double check when something obviously stinks. Double check and you will never feel guilty that you actually cheated. Unintentional cheating is still cheating and it was your fault only that you didn't check.

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    3. Yeah, the Errata says you can pivot 'Walkers'. This is clearly meant for the hardback book and not the digital one, because otherwise there would be no point in adding this correction.

      So no pivoting enemy basilisks. Too bad the Tau vehicles have turrets.. :/

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    4. "Unintentional cheating is still cheating and it was your fault only that you didn't check."

      Woah now, that's quite a harsh view. Surely the definition of cheating would imply intent...? Therefore if a mistake is made, its not cheating.

      Personally I feel bad if I get things wrong, and feel that it invalidates the game somewhat, but I would never accuse a fellow player of cheating for making a mistake :S

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    5. Fellow player - never. I agree with you on that. An unknown player I see the first time in my life? I dunno. I've seen a lot of intentional and unintentional cheating. Searchlights suddenly appearing on the Eldar tanks because my opponent thinks every tank in the game can have some, old Fortune working on Dark Eldar Archon, etc. These vary greatly and are situational, but can also be game breaking. In friendly games this is not even an issue - make as many mistakes as you want, but if that suddenly takes away somebody else's placing on the tournament list (which in my country is the main way of playing Wh40k) the problem suddenly becomes stinky. Is he telling the truth that he didn't know? Or maybe he did that on purpose? Just because you think something works one way or another doesn't mean you don't have to check it. It's your fault if you don't. Because there is always a mistake and "a mistake". Either that or roll 4+ to decide, because in this manner at least your opponent had something to say in the matter and agreed on the solution. There is a very thin line between mistakes and cheating and it does not only revolve around intent, but upon checking if one is correct. I must stress here that I'm not speaking about Natfka's game, as it was clearly a mistake in the rules and was beyond anyone's control. Yet if you learn to double check in the future you will avoid unpleasant situations or feelings for both you and your opponent. Name it cheating and it suddenly compels you to double check, especially for tournaments.

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    6. Its always worth double checking if there is a disagreement, no doubt about it - but surely if people cheating in this fashion is such an issue you'd actually need to have a qualified referee watch your match play-by-play to ensure no one accidentally-onpurpose gets something wrong surely?

      Glad I don't play competitively I must say, it sounds like a nightmare >_< Beer and Pretzels all the way :)

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    7. I prefer to double check my rules if I am mistaken. IT takes so little time to check the rules if you are familiar with your rulebook.
      Worst thing I see is two people debating a rule and both getting it wrong, and instead of looking it up in the rulebook they go and ask a third "knowledgable" person. Who may or may not know the rule.

      Better to check it. That way you learn the ins and outs of the rulebook.

      On occation where a rule is diffuse me and the people I play with tend to put it to the "What do you think", often letting the person suffering from the rule decide. Or put it to the dice god to decide.

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    8. The games was a rules mistake only. It was not cheating. We were playing a friendly game, that a misprint on the digital app for the game had incorrect.

      Not much reason to really be concerned about cheating. It was a fun game, fun opponent. We just had mistakes with the rules because of the psychic app being written incorrectly.

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    9. Reilly, I'm not sure what you're getting at; the wording of the digital rule isn't confusing at all, I thought it was pretty simple. I can't see anything that's obviously mistaken, the ability is what it is.

      1) Pivoting doesn't apply to infantry models because they have no facing. (BRB Pg10 "Turning And Facing")

      2) It must be intended for vehicles as #1 shows the rule's pivoting component has no effect on infantry and overrides the movement restriction usually imposed on vehicles post-movement phase.

      3) The targetted vehicle can pivot on the spot thanks to this ability, fire a weapon, and then is pivoted back again to it's original facing as though nothing has happened. Overall effect on model's facing: zero.

      I don't get what the fuss is about: digital editions usually get updated before the FAQs do, it's as official as a FAQ and there's no reason to treat it differently just because the FAQ hasn't been updated yet. Clearly if no players have access to the digital version then there's nothing to hand to allow the target vehicle to pivot, if the rule can be referenced and proven then there is.

      It makes little difference to me, I play Dark Angels, Tau, Eldar & Necrons and I have done for years. The pivoting point is moot for me because all my vehicles have a turret (Falcon, Wave Serpent, Fire Prism/Night Spinner, Predator, Razorback, Hammerhead, Sky Ray) apart from a Triarch Stalker, Warp Hunter & Hornet so I have nothing to gain from arguing for this rule to allow pivoting but it is what it is.

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    10. Mauler: It matters because of the Serpent Shields. These can only fire FORWARD of the vehicle as they are hull mounted. If the vehicle can be pivoted with the power, the Shields can be fired on their own troops. If not, more than likely the Wave Serpent will be facing the wrong way.

      The BRB rules do not allow ANY vehicle other than a Walker to pivot when making a shooting attack. Judging from the FAQ natfka found, the digital copy should probably read "In the case of a walker, pivot....", however, I think they left that specification out assuming that everyone would bear in mind that walkers are the ONLY vehicles that can pivot when making a shooting attack.

      Now do you get it?

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    11. Mauler: It matters because of the Serpent Shields. These can only fire FORWARD of the vehicle as they are hull mounted. If the vehicle can be pivoted with the power, the Shields can be fired on their own troops. If not, more than likely the Wave Serpent will be facing the wrong way.

      The BRB rules do not allow ANY vehicle other than a Walker to pivot when making a shooting attack. Judging from the FAQ natfka found, the digital copy should probably read "In the case of a walker, pivot....", however, I think they left that specification out assuming that everyone would bear in mind that walkers are the ONLY vehicles that can pivot when making a shooting attack.

      Now do you get it?

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    12. I get what you're saying: you think the rule is wrong and must be a mistake.

      Unfortunately special abilities are there specifically to bend and break the rules to give the owning player an advantage in exchange for a point cost and that's exactly what this power's rule does. Feel free to house rule it so there's no pivoting if it bends you out of shape that much but there's no evidence to support that.

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    13. I actually agree with Mauler here. If your point is that infantry and walkers can shoot 360, and that walkers re-assume their facing then a specific ruling that the target may pivot, fire, then pivot back must be for the sake of non-walker vehicles. It would be redundant to say "infantry models may shoot any direction and walkers may pivot as they always do anyways." As such, I say the specific inclusion of the line about pivoting is making an exception (specific rules beat out basic rules when there is a conflict), and so the shields CAN be fired at his own units.
      It seems to me the digital products should be more up-to-date than the brb. Also since the FAQ only addresses walkers in the question, it really has no significance to the issue at hand. If the FAQ read "can non-walker vehicles pivot..." then the answer would be more relevant, but it doesn't say that, so I can't see how anybody makes any conclusions based on that FAQ, other than that walkers can shoot as they would anyways, which seems pretty obvious.

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    14. The issue here is, there is no digital rulebook out yet. Only an app for psychic powers.

      In this case I would have to fall back on a rulebook and the faq's, rather than relying on an app.

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    15. I have to agree with Mauler on this one. You are assuming the digital version is a misprint based solely on a FAQ question that in no way contradicts the rule. The psychic power creates the exception regarding pivoting before shooting, and since it doesn't specify any unit types, you have to go with any target can pivot. Pivoting on the spot is specifically listed as a general vehicle movement type after all.

      I also agree with Mauler on the single shooting attack (ie, one weapon). A vehicle can have as many shooting attacks as it has weapons. Firing 3 weapons does not mean the vehicle made a single shooting attack, it means it made 3 shooting attacks. While Puppetmaster can be extremely powerful, making a single attack (instead of many) brings it down to a more reasonable level.

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  6. It all comes down to if you use the digital version or the paper rules.

    If you go by the paper rules you can not rotate a tank, if you go with the digital version it specifically states that you can "pivot on the spot in order to select a target."

    As far as I can tell people just have to pick one until it is put into the FAQ and/or they remove it from the digital edition.

    There are many things that need to be clarified with the daemon codex, but this army in particular is raising questions and (in my opinion) demonstrating a need for another main rulebook FAQ.

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    1. The target can pivot on the spot yes, but not if its a non-walker vehicle. Nowhere there does it say that other vehicles can pivot on the spot.

      '..As if it was his own unit..' How many vehicles of yours can pivot on the spot in the shooting phase??

      Only walkers.

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    2. There's no specification on target types or restrictions stipulated in the ability so it allows any target to pivot on the spot even if they're a vehicle that wouldn't normally be permitted to. It says that the target can, it doesn't say which targets can't.

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    3. The point on pivoting actually comes after the part HawkWall quotes (if the above is in fact quoted correctly), "..As if it was his own unit..., AND can pivot..." The way the rules usually go is you go in order until something doesn't apply. So i see it in bullet points:
      -shoot as if it were you own unit (cool, with normal shooting restrictions?)
      -also, you may pivot (even if it normally couldn't)

      Just the way I interpret the rules, of course, but it seems fair.

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  7. The way the power reads is different than the rulebook for a reason. Says target, not walker, the FAQ specifically asks about walkers. Sounds like it needs a FAQ about vehicles. Bynthe reading of the rule, he can pivot a vehicle. But the shields shootng is a moot point if you already shot them in the previous turn.

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    1. But you gain controll of the vehicle and treats it as your own. Vehicles can't pivot during the shooting phase, so you can't. The digital rule isn't wrong per say, but probably should state that it means walkers. (or remove it altogether)

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    2. But they can pivot on the spot to fire, the ability's rule says so.

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    3. The power specifically gives you permission to pivot on the spot. That permission overrides any other rules.

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  8. Well puppet master at least has to roll to hit. On a DP after the test, roll to hit and deny the witch you have a 42.1% chance of failing to cast the power.

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  9. maybe it was not the GW pdf but his own better version ;) its not like that is impossible to do, i could do that :D

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  10. I'm also wondering whether an opponent can ever fire your shields, even if you haven't used them yet. Puppet master lets the opponent perform shooting attacks, nothing else. It doesn't say the opponent can deactivate your shields.

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    1. Based on previous rulings regarding Mindshackle Scarabs and Force Weapons, I'd say you can use the shield to fire.

      What makes it even worse for the Wave Serpent is its is now sans shield and cannot downgrade penetrating hits.

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  11. The real issue here folks is GW broke psykers, and won't be able to fix it before 7th edition with out a major rewrite of deny the witch/psychic hood/runes of warding.

    The fact that you have no counter at all to blessings, and probably a 5+ deny the witch against maledictions, means enemy psykers can dominate entire games.

    10 Dark Reapers with guide, and ignoring cover from the prescience discipline will shoot any MEQ off the table in a round of shooting except maybe a large blob of death company.

    Throw in the Runes of Battle power to reduce armour saves by 1 as well and now they are shooting paladins off the table and all you got was a 5+ deny the witch against the lower armour save.

    They turned psychic powers up to 11, but pulled the plug on defence.

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  12. I'm speaking from memory here, but I'm not sure Puppet Master can work on Serpent Shields. The rules for the Shield say you can choose to turn it into a shooting attack in *your* shooting phase after which it's deactivated until the beginning of your next turn. So either you used the Shield to shoot in your own shooting phase, in which case it's not there for your opponent to use with Puppet Master; or it's up as a shield, and your opponent can't use it since it's not your shooting phase.
    Like I said though, I'm speaking purely from memory, so I might be completely wrong here.

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    1. Your correct about the sheilds.

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    2. The power specifically states that you may make a shooting attack as if it were one of your models. By making it "your" model, you now have permission to fire off the Serpent Shield because its during "your" shooting phase.

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  13. If you have shields up in your turn because you didnt fire them and your enemy puppet masters it to fire the shields, then your shields are now down. That would allow your opponent to drop your shields in his turn then shoot the now shield less vehicle right after. That is a big problem for eldar, especially early. I guess if you are having trouble with serpents that is very useful counter. Best thing an eldar player can do is keep your nose away from your own troops so shield shot is not an option.

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    1. I'm still not sure he can deactivate your shields, which he would need to do to allow him to fire them. He can shoot your weapons but he can't do anything else.

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    2. yep thats why i dont think it will work

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  14. Also just to be clear, the GW psychic cards also mention no rotating.

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  15. I'd say that the Psychic Powers App isn't actually a source of rules, it's just a tool to aid you in playing the game, and as such you have to defer to the actual printed rulebook and FAQ, of course, as Natfka has said a digital rulebook would potentially mess this situation up by reprinting the description from the app.

    @Steven Morrow: Whose shooting phase it is doesn't matter because puppet master tells you to treat the model as your own for the purpose of the attack, so when the Wave Serpent is forced to fire on Allies it is being treated as the opponent's tank and thus it is still "its [the Wave Serpents'] Shooting Phase" as per the shield rules.

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  16. In my opinion turning the enemy into your puppet would warrant you to be able to move them as well even as slight and cinematic as pointing them at what you are going to shoot. And since it states they return to their original facing its just the rule way of saying things return to how they were post puppet. It seems silly that you'd take control of something just to make it pull a trigger. But in the end it does need faq clarification for multiple reasons including how many weapons, etc.

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  17. In my opinion turning the enemy into your puppet would warrant you to be able to move them as well even as slight and cinematic as pointing them at what you are going to shoot. And since it states they return to their original facing its just the rule way of saying things return to how they were post puppet. It seems silly that you'd take control of something just to make it pull a trigger. But in the end it does need faq clarification for multiple reasons including how many weapons, etc.

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  18. Flip a coin, house rule it, or find a new game. I wouldn't wait around for GW to address it. You probably have better odds of TO's making a ruling.

    The rules team has been slacking lately.

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  19. I lost a bit I always thought written rules were the prominet source as the apps are optional resources. With that said it says pivot not change direction as a vechile dose. But does have a turret.

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  20. I may be a little petty ,but if you are scared by a 2/5 chance BASIC psychic power will use your vehicle against you ,then your vehicle is probably over powered. This is a power that can be used by almost everybody by the way.Really .If it can't do it to wave serpents ,what about land Raiders ext.

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  21. question: is that how it was worded when it first came out on the app, or is that after a redownload to update (like on the virtual codices) the app?

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