There are often many things going on behind the scenes of this site, and most conversations do not ever see the light of day for many reasons.This is the second conversation piece that I have been giving permission to post up on the site. 

A few days back a reader on this site, Logan (who is rumored to be a play tester), brought up the fact that he had not seen any Kroot in the Tau Play tests he had been apart of. He concluded that in the upcoming Tau codex we would not be seeing any Kroot. This conversation is not with him, but with someone I must keep anonymous.

Once again, just to be clear, this conversation piece was not with Logan, and is from a completely different unrelated source (not a play tester).

Please understand, If any parts of this seem missing or feel like things were removed or moved around, its because they were. This is the part of the conversation that I was given permission to share here on the site.

Conversation Behind the Scenes: (The not me part, and must remain anonymous source)
There is a strong desire to add new and interesting ways to use allies, beyond just mixing and matching existing armies.

In a recent iteration of the Tau playtest material Kroot were removed as one developer felt that tables looked "clutterd" and tau armies looked "rag-tag" when using Allies, at the same time as Kroot and Vespid.

This was seconded by it being suggested that Space Marines for instance, may have a willingness to work with Tau, but might react poorly to the barbaric Xenos that are Kroot.

This expanded into the idea of making mini-dexes that are not designed to stand on their own.  Army lists with 1-2 HQ options, 1 troop option, and only 1 of each other slot, or even some slots completely ignored.

These lists would be released in White Dwarf along with all the models necessary if they currently didn't exist.  These "splats" would be easy to physically design and produce, so the idea has taken some root.

While it would be possible to play an entire army using one of these lists, it would not be balanced and would be missing lots of tools and have huge gaps.  Normally this is a design issue, but could be easily overlooked in this instance.

The first idea for a list such as this is Kroot, who could therefore have a different allegiance level with Tau and Space Marines and still end up on the same table in games of 2k+.

This would add to the cinematic worth where Tau are not commanding Kroot, but instead a Shaper would have his own warband since as Allies it would require an HQ.

This would also start bringing into question interesting relationships between the levels of allegiance in terms of where these chunks of the army could be on the battlefield.  Tau being battle brothers with both, but Space Marines being Desperate with Kroot.

Potentially this could allow all sorts of sub-races, or existing ideas which cannot be fully fleshed out into entire armies to find their way into this edition.  Who knows, if something takes hold it could later be expanded upon in the same way.

This is SO early though, so it's all very much so subject to change.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Natfka
It almost seems like GW is two to three steps ahead of us now. It used to feel like the community was ahead of the curve, but I think they may have turned it on us, and all we can do is play catch up. I'm amazed at what the plans are for this edition. 

142 Comments:

  1. This would be great for the game and the hobby. I cant wait to see what happens!

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    1. Mercs is a Old idea.... Most of These New Things are Not Profit makers for GW... Look at sob Not Even finecast

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    2. IS that bad? We already pay A LOT to play this game.

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  2. so we're saying another source had the same story as Logan, and that story is that Tau are far far away?

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  3. Obviously this guy has more detail than me but the message is still the same. Like I said too this is early and subject to change though
    Changes often bring delays.

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    1. Either way both of these rumors are exciting to me. I can also see a return of the Chapter Approved with this. Splat codexes for the founding chapters maybe. (Oh I hope my White Scars can deviate from being painted white Ultras again!)

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  4. This would be an absolute dream situation, so I can't help but feel sceptical that it won't come into reality. I do very much hope it does though, as this would be a very elegant inclusion of a variety of characterful allies in a way that would far surpass the Dogs of War model from previous editions of WFB, and make the 40k narrative universe incredibly powerful.

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    1. These mini dexes were done before, and I loved them back then. I'm glad they are going back to the fun days of 40k

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    2. I agree they are great, provided they are supported long term

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    3. I whole-heartedly approve of the idea of a 'merc list', particularly if it allowed for some of the background races that have been in the fluff for years, but never been a big enough force to warranty their own codex.

      Heck, Squats are canon again, in the new main book, and - with some tweaking and tinkering - could make an excellent example of a new 'As Allies Only' list.

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  5. This makes sense and ties in with the fact that the Kroot were part of the Chaos Warband that Honsou brought to attack the Ultramar worlds in the book The Chapter's Due. They are a race of mercenaries.

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  6. The question is... if Tau ally with Kroot, would that be considered an add-on to their Codex and they'd be able to also all with others, or would the Kroot be full-fledged allies and you'd be limited to allying with another in 2000+ point games?

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    1. From what I read, it sounds like Kroot would use up your ally force organization chart.

      This would be a huge change for Tau as currently Kroot are a big deal for them, so I don't know.

      Maybe GW though is really embracing the allies concept? A race like Tau who are really bad at close combat were the first army to kind of reach out and "ally," but it was done before there were ally rules so it was all under one book.

      A lot of people made "pure" tau armies, embracing the limitations of not including Kroot mercenaries anyways.

      Time will tell I guess.

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    2. do not forget also, that he is mentioning on have Tau, Space Marines and Kroot on the board.

      So, If the Space Marine take the Ally part of the FoC, Kroot remain where?
      Tau numbers? As a Warband taking up a Tau HQ, and Troop choice but in a league of their own to follow the Shapers commands and not the Tau's?

      I know it still may be early in the process, but that does leave the Vespid out in the cold.

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    3. It would be fluffy if Tau were able to ally with two armies which are classed as battle brothers, rather than just one.

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    4. He was talking about 2K+ games I believe!

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    5. But Tau need exclusive allies as that is fundamental to their design. So what's the point in removing auxiliary races from the codex, only to release them later as Tau only allies.

      Kroot are known to merc themselves to other races, but not those races that are full on members of the Tau Empire.

      Kroot and Vespid certainly won't disappear as GW has said that they won't retcon any models out of the game as they did for Squats (which were at complete odds with the timbre of 40K by the time they were killed off).

      So... Tau players with Kroot and Vespid models will be able to use those models when a new codex is released!

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    6. Arg he mentioned them! someone ....somewhere reset the clock!

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    7. Won't retcon any models? Have u never heard of pariahs?

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    8. But Pariahs are still fully useable. They just are called something different now. GW never said they wouldn't rename things :)

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  7. Ooh, Harlequin list?

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    1. That was my first thought as well.

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    2. I cant describe the level of pure awesomeness that this would be

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  8. I would like to see an Arbite force from GW to use as an ally.

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    1. Squat splats? Sounds messy.

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    2. Genestealer cults, Adeptus Arbites, Loxatl, Zoats. Squats are just a fraction of the cool factions we could see added! :D

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    3. it really could be cool.

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    4. If the Tyranyds will puke the squats, probably yes XD

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    5. WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDD!!!

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    6. Squats are 'nid droppings excepted it,get over it and move on. I did.....those old old squat models are not mine i swear and i did not write that house rules codex its a plant!!!

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    7. Squats are 'nid droppings excepted it,get over it and move on. I did.....those old old squat models are not mine i swear and i did not write that house rules codex its a plant!!!

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  10. This could explain the dogs of war rumors that were floating around about six months ago for the new edition.

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  11. I had HOPED that GW was thinking along these lines, and I'm glad to hear some confirmation of it. Using WD to release "Mercenary" Allies just makes way to much sense to ignore given the new Allies system. Hopefully we'll see things like Kroot, Exodite Eldar (if they aren't included in the next Craftworld 'dex with the new cavalry and all), and maybe even things like Adeptus Mechanicus and Arbites!

    IMO, this is what WD *should* be doing. I just wonder if they have enough design capacity to release these additional splats along with a consistent codex release schedule, primarily from a miniatures perspective.

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    1. I agree. It gives a great opportunity to bring in new things to the game, without having to create a who new race/army; as well as bring back some of the older things that were great, but didn't quite fit.

      Feral Orks, Exodites, Squats, Arbites, Mechanicus, Genestealer cults, Zoats, Demiurg - all great potentials for a 'Mercenary List'

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  12. Perhaps Genestealer cults would be here as mayne gw wamted them to have ig allies but didmt want them to have ALL the ig toys. As it wouldnt make alot of sense. So maybe WD would fix this? To more accomidate.

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  13. Why a Nid as a picture if the article is about Tau??

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    1. You think this a tau only thing? No. Theres gonna be more like this if it works

      Ignorant much...

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    2. a cool picture i found, and this type of allies being discussed would be far more than just Tau and Kroot.

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    3. Ok. The picture is nice :) but all this stuff about nids and an allies, i don´t know, i don´t see it.

      As Nid player, i can´t imagine any viable alliance with other armies, even if they are Xenos.

      GW fuck the game up very well bringing the allies back. Vendettas for all!

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    5. I really probably should of picked a different picture, the article does not hint at tyranids getting an ally. So we don't know.

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    6. Nids used to have allies back in the day before Genestealer Brood and Tyranids became one army. Also, according to the fluff, the Genestealers usually are on a planet before an invasion, infecting the local population in preperation of the assualt. They would have to mini-dex something in, but it is absolutely viable fluff wise.

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    7. yeah genestealer cults is certinly an option, it would get tyranids an ally choice.

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  14. I really don't think the kroot are going anywhere. I think Logan has just been play testing the Farsight army rules.. Hence no kroot..

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    1. the source for this article was not Logan.

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    2. but Logan didn't say that only him haven't played with Kroot, but it's a common thing for many tests. This signify that probably in the new codex we'll see no Kroot.

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  15. I'm loving this! Not only would this allow them to expand Tau even more, it would let them expand the sub armies in time, heck it even opens the door for squats (damn the valley, there is hope!)
    Even if it is early in playtesting, and possible to not see fruition, its still an exciting possibility

    Gotta say again, thanks natfka, logan, and anonymous source, keep up the great work!

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    1. Haha, I didn't even see your comment! I was too excited reading this and jumped straight to the bottom to throw in a Squats comment, hahahaha.

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  16. I'm for it. Mini-dex Squats back in!!!!!!!!

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    1. Yeah...undead robot dwarves for me thank you! :)

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  17. I'd be surprised if they do this and personally I don't like the idea. I don't want lots of different bits of codexes floating around. Sure it opens up some exciting possibilties but armies will lose their identity too much. The problem with Tau is they benefit from allies a lot so having kroot as allies means they can't having any others below 2k.

    Seems to me like there'd be better options for allies that kroot so they'd get ignored. Logan probably didn't get any kroot but let's not get too excited and assume they're gone.

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    1. I agree somewhat that taking the Kroot out of the Tau army would change it up too much, and that most people would not use them at all without them getting a worthwhile buff to their current stat line, but I do like the idea applied elsewhere. I hope they roll with this idea a bit further and see what they can come up with, and then decide from there. It's one of those things that can be amazing if done right and thought out, but if half assed can easily be the next Spearhead, haha.

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  18. Oh God, yes I am liking all of this.

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  19. This sounds great to me. And also a really good feature they can quickly bulk up their ebooks offerings with, ally-based mini-dexes would have a pretty wide appeal and in the £5-£10 range could win over folk that may not have otherwise given ebooks a chance.

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  20. What I really want to see is NEW and interesting XENOS in the game, and preferably non-humanoid (read: things that don't walk on legs but slither or float!) ones at that - this seems like the best way to go about that kind of thing, so I'm hoping it is true and leads to exactly this sort of thing.

    I personally don't care if such a thing would be underpowered and have weaknesses, if the models are cool and they let me have the kind of thing I actually like - id be happy with even a very small selection of minis and rules.

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    1. I think thatd be very neat. A few things though: 1) with as many armies as 40k has, it would be difficult to find a niche for a new army, especially if you think of the characteristics of potential mini-dex armies like kroot, corsairs, vespid, genestealer cults. So, new armies would be hard pressed to not be reskins of the same old units. That said, if they were clever enough to do it, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. 2) part of the reason why you see so many humanoid aliens on TV and the movies is because its just plain easier and cheaper to do. I'm thinking a similar thing comes into play with this medium. Yes, GW has great sculptors, but they're best at what they do most often, and thats humanoids. Its easier to sculpt when you have references all around you (and attached to you). Additionally, theres the whole component of figuring out how technology would work for non-humanoids. Really couldnt take the bio-weaponry approach (nids got that on lockdown). How would a creature without legs drive a car? all these things would have reprecussions for how the vehicle and other technologies are designed, which takes a lot more creativity and might not make intuitive sense to the consumer. Just some off-the-wall thoughts.

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    2. Hi there, thanks for the reply - I do respectfully disagree and here are my replies to your thoughts. You certainly helped turn my brain on today (despite the hot weather!).

      I've been sculpting my own wargame for the past 5 years that is nothing -but- non-humanoid aliens in an extra-dimensional setting, and I wouldnt consider myself special or amazing in any way, at all! I don't think It's really that hard to figure out with a little thought and research (personally I tend to research deep sea life for inspiration), including how things like technology work and I'm a speck of dust compared to classic writers such as Olaf Stapledon (Star Maker) who were doing pretty well back in the 1930's too (I highly recomend that book to anyone remotely interested in sci-fi!). Even HP Lovecraft was describing things in a lot of detail with his last few stories (before he passed away).

      Many examples of non-humanoid aliens on screen have been done effectively and cheaply too as far back as the 1950s, when these were actually quite popular with amorphous blobs, giant sea creatures and floating brains! then later on in the 60's you had things such as the Daleks, Triffids ect. The former of course being arguably the most iconic and famous sci-fi alien villains in general. Then later shows like outer limits or babylon5's Vorlons - all of which were pretty dirt-cheap to build, more so now. I guess you could argue they werent very convincing or you didn't like them, personally I love that stuff though but each to their own (if you disagree). I'm also working on filming a sci-fi web show in the same setting - my budget is about £8000 (I saved up over about 3 years too D:), I've been using puppets and stop-motion to pretty decent effect. Ironically, using many modern wargame/mini sculpting technologies.

      As for real-life references around you - that goes for non-humanoid lifeforms as well, allthough admitedly you DO have to look quite hard for it. But with some research - There are some absolutely incredible (and scary!) lifeforms on this planet! Especially in the deep sea - stuff that really does feel as alien as possible. Here is one of my personal favourites : http://www.metro.co.uk/news/890765-deep-ocean-scale-worms-reveal-scary-faces-in-close-up-photos scary innit? D:

      I will however agree that things might not make intuitive sense to the consumer, at least not without some clear explanations.

      I will also agree it is difficult to find game-play niches - allthough not impossible, and I don't think it would be too bad to have a few minor factions cover similar niches - I mean, it would be nice to have a xeno equivilent of grey knights and Deathwing for example, and something along those lines would probably be easier to do a small model range of (litterally 1 model for HQ, 5 for troops, and maybe 1 or 2 other models for a few of the other FO slots).

      Hope all ive said makes sense (I am a bit tired today!)

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  21. It makes a lot of sense. For the next Necron dex they could make Canoptek a separate "Sub-Army" that is only Battle Brothers with Necrons.

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  22. So Kroot are not Fung Shway enoucgh on the board with Tau and Surprise Surprise space marines hate a xenos, Huh. Pending truth, anyone want to Kroot models? I guess spending 74.75 on one full unit of a 6 point infantry model with no ranged weapon is so worth it, now that they are out of my army.

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    1. You'd still be able to use them, and Tau would probably be the only race that is "Battle Brothers" with them.

      It really wouldn't impact Tau in any way, except not letting them have say Orks and Kroot at the same time. Which fill the same role anyways.

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    2. Yeah but, now that limits Tau to them as an allies taking up the allies slot and I pretty sure that tau players are looking at allies outside Orks. Eldar are battle brothers and provide much better benefits. Battle Brothers? do not see the true benefit of sharing IC's. My reasoning is the money put into models that are a part of your army and then they are pulled out because they don't play well with space marines or look to horde like. If i remember kroot mercenaries could be used with imperium. the imperium tolerate xenos if it benefits them. Mass fire from kroot are good against horde armies and heavy armoured model dakka.

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    3. it also depends if the ally rules are set in stone. I could see future codexes adding new special rules. for example, the chaos space marines only battle brothers right now are chaos demons, and demon ICs cannot join allies formations, even IF they're battle brothers. I'm half expecting to see something in the upcoming CSM 'dex that addresses this.

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    4. very true, which goes to show what is the benefit if kroot are allies and battle brothers. The have Tau weaponry, they need to stay. Now if they want to make a merc army dex put them in there and give them imperium stuff, but Tau kroot should retain their place in tau codex. We just need options for them thourgh the FOC slots.

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    5. why do they need to stay because they have Tau weaponry?
      consider, the Imperium has over half a dozen seperate army lists (Space marines and their various flavors, sisters of battle, imperial guard) chaos has two, so if the Tau where split up, there certinly is precident.

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    6. Its weird for a shaper to have a pulse rifle and not be in a Tau army. They need to stay because a codex on their own will work out like the assassins codex and Tau will lose allies with other armies if they have to get kroot as one. Also they are already established in tower player lists. What if they pull genestealers out of tyranids because they are independent from the hive mind.

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    7. My point is that it is a mistake to get rid of kroot and add a CC suit. The CC suit will either be a mediocre unit that will not get competitive play or be so out side the Tau fluff and tactical focus.

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  23. Wow, i honestly didn't think i could get more excited than I was when I read the QNA with the new Chaos book, but here I am, dumbfounded, and hoping that they do this. This would add so much to the game in so many wonderful ways.

    Fluff wise the Kroot in particular should fight alongside any army as long as they're not fighting against the tau.

    Also, all of the small races could be added into the universes, heck the Squats could even come back!

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    1. Fluff wise the kroot have Tau weaponry, The kroot rifles, the shaper with pulse rifle; which is a model(Dumbest idea for Shaper); kroot gun. All of it improved by tau tech to get higher strength and AP. Even Plasma Siphons affect them. That fluff wise would not go over well with Tau being killed with their tech, but Matt Ward has his ways.

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  24. The only problem I see with taking the Kroot and Vespid out of the Tau codex is that you only get 1 ally now so you can not use both Kroot and vspid in your builds. Now if they had a special rule that allows more than one of these mini-dex to be allied with the Tau I would be happy. I think that they are just weakening them more pulling them all out.

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    1. They could have added a whole slew of new units to the Tau.

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    2. Maybe Tau would get some more tools built into their base Tau units. I heard about CC Suits for instance in a previous rumor on this site.

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    3. CC suits would be the worthless model of the tau army. I would not see them getting good stats which would hurt the performance. Some how they are going to jump up 2-3 stats in WS and Intiative. Matt Ward should do the fluff and say the Tau were secretive ninja like race, that were pulling a rope a dope and now can hold themselves in close combat. What tau need is preventive assault wargear or special rules. not tau cc units.

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    4. All that the tau need to be competitive in close combat is rules to allow the to shoot their guns instead of punch. If that squad of crisis suits got 3 twin linked fusion blaster shots each (str 8, ap1), you would think twice before charging them. Personally I hope that is the route they go instead of shoehorning power weapons and power fists in to the codex

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    5. why can't they up up a few WS and initative?

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    6. Okay give some fluff behind it, and If you are a Tau player or have ever played Tau tell me how great you think they will be? What will they get WS 4 slim chance 5 and Initiative 3/4, They will be eaten for breakfast and just become a expensive speed bump as opposed to a cheap speed bump. Fluff they are blur visioned and do not like the barbaric close combat. They dont train for CC. The thing the are good at they only maintain a BS 3 till you get to a commander. They obviously don't get better with training or combat.

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    7. easy the technology of tau makes them strong the all get some hi tech glasses that adds to there +1 to there BS and the only ues the gun day in and out I don't know about you but if my whole life was devoted to shooting a gun I would get very good at it :) and ya I'm ok with ws 2

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    8. Tau don't need better ws or initiative. The still hit most things on 4 and going last doesn't hurt that much if you have the gear to make up for it

      Tau is a wargear army. Give them the wargear and the will become more than a speed bump.

      Imagine crisis suits with shield generators for 4 plus saves, now they are as good as necron lychguard

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    9. So with you Thor. wargear that hopefully makes it difficult terrain to assault. lower cost higher unit comp. Some cover buffing to help with survivability. Thats what Tau need, boost them dont try and fill a void.

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    10. I'm really impressed at how passionate you are about your views on the Tau, Demon Hound, but I feel like you're making a lot of leaps of faith.

      You're assuming that close combat tau suits would suck. Attacking the fluff is fine, but why would a developer in their right mind make a unit that's bad intentionally?

      Note that Battlesuits are strength 5, so it's not like they're without oomph. XV9 suits are Toughness 5, so it's not like they're without some resilience. WS3 is fine, even Initiative 2 is fine. Give them a 2+ save and suddenly they're terminators with better mobility, but slightly less combat proficiency.

      I think the problem here is that a suit of that kind doesn't fit /your/ version of Tau.

      Consider that Kroot have been allies for Tau in the past, before ally rules. Doesn't it make sense that Tau now suffer the same limitations as other armies provided they also get the same advantages of other armies?

      That is to say, treating allies at allies, but getting something in their own book to fill the "Close combat" gap?

      Whether it's fortifications, the ability to throw defensive grenades to potentially stop charges (perhaps after overwatch), or a dedicated or hybrid CC unit, these are only the top of my head thoughts for what could be done with the book that isn't kroot while still letting tau use the kroot they have in the past, or now explore -other- options.

      I think that this has a lot of potential for the game as a whole, and that you should look at it from that perspective and not how a rumor, probably a year or more before the tau book comes out, impacts your army.

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    11. Crisis suit can hold their own in combat now...i saw a squad eat 30 ork boys sqaud...ok they got lucky, but s5 witj and option for the 4+ shields

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    12. I can certainly tell you guys the CC Suits will be very cool and very good at hacking it up. :)

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    13. I am looking forward to seeing a CC suit, as my brother plays Tau. But I personally don't think they would need it just give the Tau a better BS during overwatch as all that gun training would improve their reflexes, or maybe they have the tech to allow for it.

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    14. Trust me. He'll want them. Especially if they have this one unique wargear that is ridiculously cool. Lets just say I hope your oponent doesnt roll 1's to hit in CC :)

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  25. This would be neat actually. I see the potential in:
    Witch Hunters, Ordos Xenos, Kroot/Vespids, Deathwatch and other "non-vanilla" Astartes

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  26. Yeah taking the Kroot out leaves room for that Assault Crisis Suit that was mentioned and removing the Vespid would also make room for the Assault Drones I guess as well...

    I like the Tau with the UN feel. Removing that from the board, just to benefit from the Ally Rules with Space Marines is however a great axe to the neck :(

    Like someone else said, I will be making an IG allies but geared up as Human Aux for the Tau!

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    1. Further more even if they did put Assault suits in they don't need to clear room. Move them to elite or FA. Pathfinders deserve the troop slot. They are perfect for objective holding, but just need point reducts and bigger unit comp. Which is the same thing fire warriors need. The are more offensively aggressive with shooting.

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  27. I would love, love, love to see some of the variety of the 40k universe come out in allied detachments. Squats, Kroot, Arbites, Mechanicus, Fallen Dark Angels (with Cypher!), genestealer cults, Hrud, Pan Fo, Custodes... The mind swims with possibilities.

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  28. Perfect way to have Squats or the Demiurg in the universe without GW having to make a whole army. Can't wait.

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    1. No one is forcing you to be a part of this community

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    2. except this isn't the first place I've heard about them removeing kroot from the play test rules. however this doesn't mean they'll be removed, It sounds like an idea they came up with and they thought they'd get the testers to take a look at how it played.

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    3. Psst, anon. I have a secret... We don't give a damn about the nay sayers. Its at worst a fun thought and a cool idea. At best it's 100% true. I can hope for the best, encourage the rumor mongers on the hopes they will continue, or call them liars and scare them away so gw can have that tight lid they so desperately crave.

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    4. Grant was right, and Logan's rumors are being supported by many others with information on play testing and the like. So if you think you can do any better or produce your own rumors that turn out to be right, please be my guest.

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    5. Oh Natfka! Hate to be that guy but this guy above is making derogatory comments to our rumor mongers, using specific names as well. Being one who appreciates the rumors, i support this sites zero hate tolerance. To Logan and the others, don't be discouraged by guys like this! We really appreciate all you tell us! Thank you!

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    6. I didnt see the comment but thanks for those that spoke up :). Now you might not believe what i say but do not think im am COMPLETELY lying and manipulating you for a giggle. When I said no Kroot I only ment it would be a Tau only book. I had no idea this would take shape and am glad it is.

      Unfortunately I swore to not tell rumors because some people cant handle them but some units are just really cool rules wise!

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    7. Logan don't bother with the haters. Most of us appreciate what you do and if a few immature posters can't handle what they're told, well that's their problem.

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  30. I know many of you have been playing longer than me, but isn't this the same approach as the old Assassins codex?

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  31. Wait, I thought 2nd allied detachments had to be from the same dex as the first.

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    2. Page 110 under the bigger games heading, a second allied detachment must be form the same codex as your primary allied detachment

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  32. Mechanicum Minicodex?
    Custodes Minicodex?
    YES PLS TAKE MY MONEY

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  33. A Tau only 'dex would be dreadful. Even if you could take auxiliaries as allies, you'd only be able to take once choice. You wouldn't be able to take Kroot with Vespid or whatever else was available.

    Also, while it makes sense for other armies to have Kroot as allies, the rest of the aliens that are part of the Tau Empire etc... shouldn't be available to any other army, so why bother leaving them out of the 'dex?

    Everything I've heard regarding this rumour flies in the face of what differentiates the Tau from other armies. Remove the variety of Tau auxiliaries and you've got an army that looks little different from Space Marines, Eldar etc...

    I don't doubt that individual elements of a developing codex are tested in isolation, as the current trend for codexes is to remove 'must have' units, giving more flexibility in army lists without crippling that list.

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    1. Also, if the Tau looked 'cluttered' and 'rag-tag' with Kroot and Vespid on the board, then how bad are they going to look, say, allied with Orks?

      The 'rumour' just doesn't stand up by itselfs.

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    2. I play with no kroot and i do fine. I'm not undefeated but i manage and even win a few local tourneys. Kroot were the losing side of who the newest xenos should be but got lucky and were given a supporting role. Now for the kroot lover, under this new thought, they can field their beasties in mass and without the need for tau ( running kroot heavy was a dumb idea before and running them solo won't change it)

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    3. You miss the bit where it said " when using Allies, at the same time as Kroot and Vespid."? The whole point way that tau's "internal" allies didn't mesh well with the ally rules.

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    4. Even if it is just a Tau book it will be awesome. Im not sure yet but I think its gonna be a massive rehaul like Necrons or Dark Eldar were. Those books are very fun and competitive and I would expect no difference.

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    5. I hope so Logan. I play Tau with no auxilleries. I love the look of the suits, firewarriors, drones and vehicles. I dont even own any Kroot or Vespids. I would be super happy if the rumors pan out and it does wind up being a more Tau focused codex and use the allies system to represent the auxillery races that they have access to.

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    6. Yeah its not that they are breaking Tau but rather moving things to put new things. Kroot goes out more units take place. Vespids go out? They fill those holes too. Yes it may not ne oldschool but its gonna be new and exciting! I cant wait if half this stuff gets through to play them.

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  34. A curious thought, to be sure. While I could see this happening, I wonder how this would affect certain armies that are currently mainliners, i.e. Sororitas, considering they were basically auxiliaries back in second edition.
    That being said, I am somewhat confused by the 'ahead of the curve' comment. What is meant by this?

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  35. I don't get it. Can someone boil down what the article is saying?

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    1. Things like Kroot, Arbites, Squats etc, will end up in half-codex form, where they have too few options to be their own book, but enough options to be allies for or take from other races to fill gaps.

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  36. I personally dont see a down side. The Tau would get a ton of new units and they would be able to expand the Kroot and vespid which isn't likely while they are in the Tau codex together. Add the possibility of new races and mini allies for the other armies and I think we have a winner.
    Not being able to have all the Tau allies on the field at the same time is only a small sacrifice, especially if Tau get a suitable replacement. The assault suits come to mind. They could easily replace vespid.
    And if vespid get an overhaul, they may actually see more play. Kroot too for that matter.

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    1. Yeah, you would need to expand the Vespid. Unless a Strain Leader is HQ and 5 Vespids is so like how it is now.

      I dunno about other races or such, but without expanding the Vespid, they would be lack luster as an 'Ally'.

      Also the final thing is, would GW actually be willing to make models for a Merc Dex? What would be stopping a player from making a 100% Merc list? Some Orc here, some Kroot here, some other ab human races or regular human troops like space pirates and thats their army?

      It looks righteous is some views, in other its a disaster I think.

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  37. Interesting. This way it could be like in the last novel of the Iron Warriors I've red, where Iron Warriors employed Kroots. Also Squats can be bringed on, as can be minor IG factions, new alien races or perhaps minor but important Marines Chapters that never had a codex on their own like Iron Hands, Blood ravens or the Raven Guard.

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  38. This way you could recreate the fight like the one in the last Iron Warriors novel I've red, where Kroots were employed by the Iron Warriors themselves!
    Interesting. This could bring to new alien races, minor and new IG factions or perhaps minor but important Marine Chapters like Raven Guard, Iron Hand, Blood Ravens and such.

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  39. This way you could recreate the fight like the one in the last Iron Warriors novel I've red, where Kroots were employed by the Iron Warriors themselves!
    Interesting. This could bring to new alien races, minor and new IG factions or perhaps minor but important Marine Chapters like Raven Guard, Iron Hand, Blood Ravens and such.

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  40. And what if Tau aint loosing all their auxiliaries but only the Kroot?. vespids still have Tau armor and tauish looking weapons, so they could stay. Give us another or two new auxiliaries, wich should also have at least tau armor, and we have a consistent looking army. Then Kroot get a minidex wich we can ally as battle brothers, fits everyone's fluff, or almost. Just theorizing (or however you spell that xD) here BTW.

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    1. The problem with other races, its the same problem as stated above if you bring Xenos and the Tau are allied with Space Marines. The SM will not like to be next to... ahh screw it, they would kill the Xenos first then the enemy lol

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  41. For a Tau ally WD Mini Dex they could actually beef it up to have multiple allies included instead of just Kroot therefofe people would still be able to field Vespid and Demiurg wothout them being in the propper codex thus freeing up space for more Tau exclusive units.

    Example:

    HQ's

    Kroot Shaper
    Kroot Shaman (Psyker)
    Vespid Strain Leader
    Demiurg Mine Captain

    Elites

    Krootox Riders
    Demiurg Excavation Mech

    Troops

    Kroot Carnivores
    Demiurg Excavator Team


    Fast Attack

    Kroot Hounds
    Vespid Sting Wings
    Kroot Gnarlock Riders

    Heavy Support

    Demiurg Mining Laser
    Greater Gnarlock


    Simple as that. I know that all the Demiurg stuff is mining related but even the Mining team would be well armed (probably with Ion Rifles) because what if they excavated an asteroit that turned out to be an Ork Rok? they would have to be able to fight back so it makes sense.

    if mini dexes does happen then just think of the possibilities!

    Tallerian Dog Soldiers
    Hrud
    Galg
    K'nib
    Nekulli
    the list goes on!

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    1. That seems sort of unneccessary and out of the bounds of the allies concept being discussed. You wouldn't have several merc races piled into one place. Instead you'd have a mini stand alone Kroot list based on the old White Dwarf Kroot list and Vespids would do their own thing separately. Personally Id be super excited if they did do this sort of thing.

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  42. Shaper should be sergeants at the least not HQ.

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  43. This is a good tool to get squats back in the game. The demand for squats is huge. There has to be a way to get them back into the game.

    simply create new fluff stating that while the tyranids destroyed nearly all of the squats one hive world remained hidden. Suddenly the beer guzzling biker guys realize they are near extinction and adopt harsh but new ways to survive which is shown in a new codex for them. A mini dex. Or not....

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    1. I agree. A while ago there was a conversation with a developer that said he was upset how Squats had turned into dwarven hell's angels.

      Some of the art out there (for instance Nachoman's) lends itself to some amazing potential for the Demiurg. Maybe not enough for a whole army, but this would be a window to get them in.

      If they became popular, they might even get fleshed out into an army over time.

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  44. Are any off you guy thinking about how forgeworld fit into this? There is already presidence with the release of the allie rule for such as the eldar corsairs who are now a fully fledged battle brother for my eldar!

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    1. Bad one handed typing on my iPad sorry

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  45. Perfect time for Forgeworld to do an Adeptus Mechanicus Imperial Armour book...Allied Skiitarri and Mini Titans anyone?

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  46. Curious question is curious. What kinds of Chaos exclusive allies would possibly-maybe crop up were this to be true? :o

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    1. Traitor guard? Red Corsairs maybe?

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  47. I'm a huge fan of this idea. For example, I love Kroot, but I'm not a big fan of Tau, so if I can take them out of the equation and get straight to the jungle chickens, I'm 100% on board. And if we can finally get a legit Kroot HQ? Aw yyyeeeeaaaaahhhhh...

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  48. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  49. CODEX: VESPIDS CONFIRMED

    CONFIRMED

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  50. Similar rumors for WHFB have been around for quite some while now though. No surprise it's been ported over to WH40K as well, now that much of WH40K again follows WHFB.

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  51. Might be a bit far fetched, but I can even see room for publishing some striped-down versions of exisitng codices. Like Ork cult of speed with rules for boyz, bikes, killacoptas, pikk-ups, ... Basicly stuff thatz fast 'n orky. Throw in one or two lil' specials, that make this fun and interesting to play (like, let's say: supa-fast-storm-killa-canz) and some people might buy the WD and some minis that otherwise wouldn't have.
    Gives us players something new (and we sure like that)and isn't to expensive to develope/produce for GW. And they can sell some extra stuff...

    I can see quite a lot of interesting and fluffy mini-dex lists like that:

    Kroot
    Genestealer Cult
    Eldar-Exodites or -Corairs
    IG Renegade Units
    Not-so-well-known SM-Chapters
    Chaos Cultists
    DE Raider-Band
    Army of Grot (yay!)

    Most of these mini-lists could easily be taken right out of exisitng Codices and might lure some people to even buy the "full Codex" after they played a while with their limited ally detachment.
    But I guess in the end it all comes down to potential losses vs. additional sales for GW. Anyways: Would be realy nice to see something like that in WD. :-)

    P.S. Sry for grammer and spelling-errors. I'm not a native speaker.

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  52. Personally I hate the whole idea of allies, they say it adds to the fluff but I am yet to see any fluffy games, the amount of times my world eaters have been smashed by an Ork summoned bloodthirster is ridiculous. I like to picture the 40k universe as one where nobody trusts anyone because they are engaged in eternal war! Am I the only one who sees this?

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  53. Personally I hate the whole idea of allies, they say it adds to the fluff but I am yet to see any fluffy games, the amount of times my world eaters have been smashed by an Ork summoned bloodthirster is ridiculous. I like to picture the 40k universe as one where nobody trusts anyone because they are engaged in eternal war! Am I the only one who sees this?

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  54. I am glad that they wouldn't be removed fully. A mini dex makes sense with the whole Allies thing and it stays true to the fluff in a sense of the space marine scenario. Also they can be expanded in the future. But lets say what if the Kroot mini dex was released before Tau and then when the Tau codex would be released it is included in there as well since they are part of the TAU in the end or just include them in the fluff as well. This could lead to many space marine chapters that might be slightly different in some way yet are not so different that they deserve their own codex so this idea could work out great.

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  55. Nice to see some possible attention to xenos. However i carn't help thinking that it will turn into the usual love fest for the Imperium, with random successor chapters introduced in White Dwarf (with the obligatory finecast shoulder pad upgrade set). It will help little johnny beat his friend after all.

    That's ok though, as they are a business of course.

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  56. Who cares about sucessor chapters... give me Catachans who dont die to mystic terrain, with a lot of walkers, heavy weapons, and ferocious native animals.

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