The latest edition of our beloved hobby has brought many changes to the ways in which we build, paint, and most of all, play. The greatest change, as I believe many agree, to the ways in which we stay up late building army lists or how we throw dice on our cinematic, narrative-forging battlefields, is most certainly the almighty flyer. Some teams get them, some teams don't, and even allies often boil down to teaming up with whoever can give you the most powerful wings in the sky.


Scouring the internet you will soon stumble upon all-too-common hatred for flying behemoths on OUR battlefields. Some people love them, some people hate them, but one thing remains constant... almost all of us use them. So did GW's grand scheme to get us to buy plastic planes work? Do our competitive natures blind us from the realities of flyers? My goal is to analyze why exactly it is that many (not all) of us shell out lots of cash we may not have for units that our opponents often don't want to see. So the question is, why?

In my opinion, the use of flyers boils down to an age-old cooperation problem: The Prisoner's Dilemma. Let's put this in Warhammer terms.


Don't take flyersTake flyers
Don't take flyers
3,3
0,4
Take flyers
4,0
1,1


Now let's take a look at this chart that lays out the choices that two 40k players have, to take flyers or to leave them at home. The numbers represent possible outcomes, with higher numbers equating to bigger payouts (in this case more fun, better chance of winning, etc.) for the players. So in a perfect world, the best outcome that can happen for both players is for neither to take flyers - Both players have maximum interaction with eachother's units and have an have a much more level playing field, leading to a better quality game. However, the dominant strategy of this dilemma is to take flyers. Think about it. If you take flyers and your opponent doesn't, as a self-interested actor you just maximized your chances of winning and thus the fun YOU will have. Furthermore, if your opponent also takes flyers, while the overall game will be worse off, you will still be better off than if you didn't take your flyers because your opponent would have taken all the benefits for himself! Make sense? To put it in simpler terms, in this scenario, which assumes a tournament setting where you don't know what your opponent is taking ahead of time, both players are incentivized to take flyers, even though the game would most likely be better off as a whole if neither of them did and they were able to interact with each other's units without being forced to take models that they may not want to include in their army. So GW has effectively pinned us down in this unfortunate situation, making the dominant strategy to take models we may not want to if we want to win or have a fair game (if you don't care about winning, then this doesn't apply! Unless of course you like having fun....).

Now, you shouldn't understand this analysis to mean that I hate flyers and think they should be eliminated from the game. I love the idea of flyers and think they're great, I just simply disagree that to remain competitive, we are often (but not always) forced to take flyers or flyer defense, even if we don't want to. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that not all armies are created equally - some just don't have hard access to air power and are at a significant disadvantage. This means that players may find themselves struggling to take allies that they flat out just don't want, just have access to that precious flyer, or even abandoning an army altogether. In my opinion, that just isn't good for the game, or for players as a whole. 40k is at its best when variety and innovation are encouraged, rather than seeing the same armies everywhere you go. It's no discredit to the players, it's just the dilemma that we live in if we want to play competitively, brought on by an onset of a 6th edition rulebook that heavily favors flyers. Not being able to interact with models on the board is boring and bad for the game, so how can we solve this prisoner's dilemma without altering the rules with which we play?

The simplest answer is communication. While I definitely think that knowing what your opponent is taking before you make your list is just unfair, I think there is a simple fix. "Hey, I want to use flyers this game," or "Hey, let's just duke it out on the ground" is all it takes for matches to remain enjoyable for both players, without them being forced to play the dominant strategy in the '40k gamer's' dilemma. Of course, the ultra-competitive gamer will raise a good point - it's all part of the tactics to try and out think your opponent before the match begins and create balanced army lists that can deal with flyers. I firmly agree, and I think flyers add a whole new dimension to the game that tacticians have the opportunity to try and test themselves by countering. However, I also believe that the "auto-include" nature of flyers or flyer defense limits our choices, and thus our tactical decisions. This makes list building all the more boring and stifles creativity which promotes an even more competitive environment. I don't think it takes away from the game if players communicate beforehand to make sure that the match is as fun and competitive as it can be, rather than the disparity between the air-superiority of codexes determining the match before it begins.


This is definitely a touchy topic in 40k, and I definitely don't claim to be the authority. I do however believe that we as gamers should have an open conversation about this issue. With that being said, what are your thoughts? And as always, comments and follows are greatly appreciated!

jwhite1078

theflyingpredator.blogspot.com

79 Comments:

  1. Here is the reason why I buy flyers...because they look cool, I just blew you're mind...

    ReplyDelete
  2. I take flyers because I've been taking flyers since before even 5th edition and my army's flyers are the best in the game.

    And because they look awesome.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The real problem stems from GW being a model company first, rather than a game company. The new models will always outshine the old ones in a FOC. Annihilation Barges>Monoliths, Forgefiends>Defilers, Flyers>Ground Units and so on. This makes us buy more to be competitive. "Auto-Include" doesn't exist. It is fabricated by people frustrated with a change in meta that they are unwilling to adapt to because of either unrealistic expectations that their army will always be perfect across new editions or the like. Somethings become more recommended but aren't necessary unless you want to stay competitive. It's the nature of the game. If new more powerful things didn't come out then the game would stay the same forever. Adapt or not, but don't(not addressing you specifically Author of this article) take out your frustration on someone who is willing to adapt.

    I don't think that chart is an accurate representation of how to equate "fun". I can see intense aerial battles being quite intense and fun. The classic example of the "Prisoners Dilemma" was more definitive in that betrayal equated to a bad time where as this is much more subjective.

    In my group we don't mention if we're taking flyers or not, because we don't need to. There are plenty of options to counter them and it prevents list tailoring.

    I like the idea of flyers and they can be countered by taking Quadguns, your own flyers and FMC's. I make my lists as balanced as possible to handle any threat. Across four armies, I only have three flyers and three FMCs, but plenty of anti-air support that can easily be directect to the ground as well(Missile Launchers, Aegis, Harvester Cannons and so on).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My Nephilim shoots pink cupcakes that barely leave frosting on the enemies. You can only take one fortification, with one gun upgrade. The plural usage of Quadgun is an impossibility. Oh, and I have no FMC. So what do you recommend I do to counter flyers?

      MEQ Devs that can't move and fire? Guess what gets burned first? The devs...

      It's completely and utterly unbalanced. Furthermore it's even more frustrating that I have FW pieces to counter flyers that no one let's me use.

      "that will shoot my Heldrake down before it even fires, totally unfair." "The Heldrake wipes units in single turns, and has it will not die and 5++." "Idk man, it's still FW, I don't think you should use it."

      This game is a joke.

      Delete
    2. Maybe ally so you can get better flyers or AA?

      Delete
    3. Honestly, it sounds like your gaming club is the real joke here. I sympathize, sincerely, but not everyone is stupid when it comes to fielding FW minis. Are there no other groups in your area? If there are, you should jump ship.

      Delete
    4. Jaydee, started IG. Running Azzy with a blob squad and using vendetta's. Haven't gotten to test it much.

      About the gaming group... You could be right. Im trying to expand my casual gaming friends, and playing in a GT at a new shop in a couple weeks.

      Sorry to the OP that I came off so angry. Flyers really make me butthurt.

      Delete
    5. You can take a fortification per Primary Detachment, thus multiple Quadguns at 2k+.

      I never said it was balanced, only that I try to make my lists balanced.

      For Dark Angels, you have cheaper flakk missiles and can take more marines for more meat-shield wounds. Your Jetfighter can shoot a twin-linked lascannon, two missiles and the heavy bolter into a single enemy fighter and treat weapon destroyed as immobilized. Go for the rear armour. Add in a quadgun or two and if you have problems with flyers, then your are unlucky. If you have one FlakkDev team then you are asking for it to be target priority. Take two and put them spread out on a Skyshield Pad for a 4++, and an aegis, throw in a fighter or two of your own and get back to me. Suddenly that Heldrake has to pick between multiple targets that can take it down. Three Heldrakes? Two Quadaegis or one and a Skyshield, four missile FlakkDevs and three fighters. All of which can instantly be turned to ground targets.

      As for FW units, it might be because they want to win more than they want you to have a better chance. If they are unwilling to even try then that is most unfortunate and should re-examine who you choose to play with. I personally will take on anything within reason, FW, White Dwarf and Homebrew so long as I know beforehand. Sometimes we even break the rules and take units outside our codices for fun.

      I also think that Interceptor is a terrible rule to begin with.

      Delete
    6. The Devs are flakey and bit overpriced to me. They really don't hold up well, and have to remain stationary to utilize the expensive Flak.

      The jet lacks stopping power, the missiles and bolter failing to have enough strength to pen.

      Chasing planes and out maneuvering to get a RA shot is fun and rewarding. Against the drake though, it becomes nearly impossible given how it fires it guns. Most people can fly it out of danger, and still burn units.

      I'll admit I'm not WAAC, nor do I have decades of experience in this game. But countering flyers is a tough nut to crack. Especially the Helldrake.

      Delete
    7. It need occurred to me that dual lists would unlock multiple fortifications. Thanks for the heads up.

      Delete
    8. This is a bit extreme but I have seen this work and its incredibly troll tatsic to flyers. Since your starting IG, take a 2 company command squads as HQ and add 2 master of fleet. At double FOC you can have 4 of them which means -4 to your opponents reserves!!!

      Delete
    9. SYeti. You've blown my mind on a couple levels.

      Grabbing a sky shield ASAP.

      Going to try multiple flakdev squads.

      Seriously. Thank you.

      Delete
    10. No prob. Also your FlakkDevs are cheaper than my CSM ones and have better USRs, and are at base are strictly better. I plan to have at least one FlakkHavoc squad every 1k points and an Aegis line with Quadgun at 1k+, only one because my DP and Soul Grinders fill the gap if I take a Skyshield to protect them at 2k+.

      Delete
    11. Jaydee, masters of the fleet and astropath's bonus's and negative modifiers to reserve rolls do not stack.

      per Imperial Guard FAQ

      Delete
    12. Also don't forget to take a few extra marines in the flakkdev units to absorb some wounds before they get to your launchers, even a few can go a long way with that 4++ as templates don't generate more wounds then there are models in a unit(Unless its a model with the Swarms USR haha)Also you have access to Divination which is amazing. So I recommend looking at the Div Chart.

      I'm glad to have helped out. Don't get discouraged by WAAC lists because at the end of the day min/maxing statistics is at times preferable to more balanced lists by some players. GW doesn't really help mitigate it either.

      It is also a hobby. So do what you really want. My goal is to not get tabled by being able to answer just about anything and not prefer min/maxing over fun. I do want to win, but that's secondary to my painting and modeling.

      Delete
    13. This is a little tangential to the overall topic, but I get a little annoyed when people claim GW knowingly makes new models powerful. I won't deny that some new models have proved competitive (Heldrake, Riptide, Necron Flyers, Annihilation Barges), however that's not the full story. Here are also a number of new release models commonly considered sub-par (Nephilim, Dark Shroud, Mutilators, Warp Talons). I don't believe they look at the new models and think 'how can we make this unit the most powerful?' They simply get things wrong sometimes. When you look at the Tau release, the Broadside was considered nerfed - yet it got a new model. Additionally, the Tau flyers certainly aren't auto-take, and even the Riptide's only a touch above the codex mean. Overall, I think some people just focus on the better units, and ignore the sub-par ones.

      Delete
    14. SYeti... you don't own the DA codex or you wouldn't be touting flack missiles like they can account for anything in a game. 25pts for 1 str7 shot isn't going to do anything vs a hell drake, and thats IF the helldrake dosnt just fly one and burn the the devs to the ground before they get to even shoot.

      The dark angel flyers are a JOKE, and a cruel one at that. You will NEVER get into rear armor on a helldrake if the player is even halfway competent or sober. you cant even try and avoid them by having your flyers near the table edge when they come on because they can just vector strike you on the way past...

      @ paralelogram lets not forget that GW FAQ'd the helldrake to it current OP state. When it was released it could be avoided by staying out of its arc. Then in the up coming tau codex GWs solution to flyers is to give 1 army the tools to take them one effectively...

      Iv got to the point that im not even going out to look for games anymore. I really wanted the new DA codex to be at least playable for a few months.

      Delete
    15. I totally agree with Azrell. SYeti's suggestions have no real merit. str 7 flakk missiles VS AV 12 are about useless. even with 8 vs AV 12 your looking about 3ish turns to down a flyer. so, AV12 flyer comes in on turn 2, 3 turns later you kill it on turn 5.... that is assuming of course your Devs don't get thinned out first, in which case it will take longer to down the flyer.

      The DA nephilim is by far the worst flyer in the game imho. Its cost is so ridiculously prohibitive, and its weapon setups make absolutely zero sense that the thing is not even close to being worth taking. its missiles(which are the same strength as the bullets from the unmega bolter...WTF??!!??), can only glance AV12, and its HB can't even glance. so you have a single TL las cannon that can even pen AV12. the odds of destroying any of the Av12 flyers with this junk are very low. like 3 turns to kill one... a vendetta, or stormraven(or even a storm talon, and other flyers) will down the nephilim long before he takes out the enemy flyer. only the helldrake has no real counter attack to the nephilim, just the fact that it is AV, will not die, etc etc will make you shoot at it all game.

      whats funny is SYetis suggestion seems to be, take a nephilim, take a skyshield platform, take 2 squads of missiles devs, and an ageis to take down helldrakes(and the rest of the AV12 flyers) so how many points is that just to try to erase flyers?? way too many.

      now, having said all that, if there was no AV 12 flyers in the game and AV 11 was the max armor for flyers, i wouldn't have much of a problem with the nephilim. I would still say its cost is about 20 points too much but at least it could do its job and be an "air superiority fighter"

      Delete
    16. Awww, my dragon offends the army that got a cheaper, and half the time better, version of all my basic units? I have a little trouble feeling bad for the corpse lovers when a terminator army negates the dragon almost completely and is significantly better than my version of the same.

      Maybe it's just my local group, we don't tend to spam fliers, but we've never had any problems with them. If someone wants it to come down, it usually does in a turn or two.

      Also, the FAQ did help the drake, but it still had pretty massive coverage if you read the rules for shooting and torrent. My local group was just looking over how much area it could really cover, and what kind of screwy shots it could make because of torrent's wording, when the FAQ made the analysis pointless.

      Delete
    17. Warp Talons are amazing and undercosted, for the price of 2LCs you get 2LCs and daemon jump infantry that can be marked. Thats a steal. Add ina jump lord for grenades. Golden.

      Also as far as GW models are concerned I wouldnt think that way but only models that now have competition in their slot got nerfed. There were no DA flyers before which you now have to buy to fill the hole, where as Monliths and Defilers got nerfed hard and Fiends and barges are better for the points.

      I do have the DA codex and the CSM one. CSM flakk missiles are more expensive, CSM Havoc squads are more expensive, yet I take the CSM ones because I can use them to fight any vehicle. Also 25 points that can take down 170? Not bad, throw in a few more to increase your chances. I was also suggesting from a pure DA codex perspective. Once you ally and gain access to the Storm series of flyers and Vendettas it gets much better. What I suggested to take can also be used against any other target in the game. So it's not dedicated to just a flyer. Don't think so narrowly. The skyshield also helps with Tau markerlights negating cover to large blast you with overhcarged ion cannons. Now your heavy support has a constant 4++ from shooting.

      Also jumping to worst case scenario, always fighting Heldrakes, and assuming that statistics will always be exact and it won't die is counter productive. You're only discouraging yourself from trying. Which makes it that much easier for your opponent to beat you. Not everything can be good against everything. Lucky rolls happen, I've seen some crazy things. Don't depend on them of course, but don't count them out ether.

      Volo bring sup good points too. I didnt even dive into the Terminator combos. Which can go out and wreak havoc while your Devs sit back and dakka behind a 4++

      (If this double-posts, my bad.)

      Delete
    18. rememebr the helldrake almost always ahs the flamer. which means it's not thast effective against air units

      Delete
    19. While they sell books at a very expensive Price and while they encourage to have rules in digital format, i can no longer believe the fact that they are a model's company. It is not true, they are doing lots of money with books, rulebooks, codex, limited edition codex, cards, digital materials, "how to paint" books, dices, paints (you never needed so much kind of paints), brushes, even FIVE kind of different glues, the White Dwarf mag, its digital versión, the ipad/iphone apps, audio books, army cases, knives, drills, saws, emery boards, sculpting tools and whatever tool you can imagine (useful or not) Green stuff, liquid Green stuff, spray guns, water effect liquid, basing kits... well, i am afraid its main object WAS to sell minis, now i am afraid they have found another ways of making money... in fact some of them are not the best minis in the world, some are expensive and odd... they use ALL the other things I have mentioned to create a "hobby", a full hobby, we are talking about Games Workshop, not the old Citadel model makers.

      Delete
    20. While they sell books at a very expensive Price and while they encourage to have rules in digital format, i can no longer believe the fact that they are a model's company. It is not true, they are doing lots of money with books, rulebooks, codex, limited edition codex, cards, digital materials, "how to paint" books, dices, paints (you never needed so much kind of paints), brushes, even FIVE kind of different glues, the White Dwarf mag, its digital versión, the ipad/iphone apps, audio books, army cases, knives, drills, saws, emery boards, sculpting tools and whatever tool you can imagine (useful or not) Green stuff, liquid Green stuff, spray guns, water effect liquid, basing kits... well, i am afraid its main object WAS to sell minis, now i am afraid they have found another ways of making money... in fact some of them are not the best minis in the world, some are expensive and odd... they use ALL the other things I have mentioned to create a "hobby", a full hobby, we are talking about Games Workshop, not the old Citadel model makers.

      Delete
  4. I don't subscribe to the theory that if you take fliers and your opponent doesn't, that somehow your going to win. Mission, skyfire etc have a lot to say about that. Also if both players take fliers I believe expands the game and tactics used. And like others have said they look cool. Nice, well thought out article, but I disagree a bit.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I myself play against an opponent that consistently uses many fliers. I don't always use fliers, but am just fine with trying to find strategic ways around it. It doesn't detract from my fun at all. I get soo tired of people whining about fliers, and where I think in this article you took a rather nice tone about it, it still feels like a flier haters whining to me.

      Delete
  5. Umm, yeah as the above comments say I like the look of the flyers I take and also I like the "fluf" and idea of them. I don't understand why the main point of your article hinges on the idea that flyers are intrinsically bad and reduce the fun and "interaction" of the game for the players by their mere presence. You claim not to dislike flyers but the whole basis of your argument is that they aren't fun in a game that should be exactly that. Very mixed messages and I've gotta say I'm not impressed with presenting your opinion as fact with a chart based on the same assumption.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. His point was that they are bad for a player that has no flyers or AA in his/her codex. As a Tau player, I was in this boat until recently :-)

      Sure, you can choose allies to fill the holes, but I honestly resented the idea that i had to start a whole second army just to play a fair game.
      Now, if there is a second army you like, or options you like better, thats a different story. You have a choice in the matter.

      Delete
  6. Flyers are bullshit. Not enough AA. Planes are not all equal. It's just bullshit, flat out. You spent $150 on a couple dragons to ensure you win, and make the game unfun for me, blows.... Happens all the time.

    They should just let our lord and savior Phil Kelly write all the books. Maybe shit would be balanced?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Funny you mention those "dragons" because Mr. Kelly is the guy who made those rules.

      Delete
    2. Yep, and before VS ignored cover, and it got turret mount for its gun I didn't hate it all. I mean, it sucked and I got burnt a bit, but I just waited for my own flyer. Then I got one that was useless, and they beefed up the Drake (To sell more?).

      I don't know if that was his call... I just think if he wrote all the flyer rules it'd be more consistent. Or they could just let us take actual AA like FW does...

      It's just frustrating to me. Keeps me up at night when I lose to em.

      Delete
    3. Indeed he did. There is plenty of AA, some of the best come from the BRB. Not all flyers are equal because not all have the same purpose/points cost. Heldrakes flaming you? More transports with Quadgun support. One of the best way to counter anything is to deny it interaction with your units or severely limit it.

      Delete
    4. Since I play Necrons. I've learned that the quantity of my flyers can beat nearly any quality of one.

      Can't wait for that new FW flyer :D

      Delete
    5. Transports did well before, but now the Drakes can pop a tank and burn the occupants...

      I really want the AA in the BRB to work. But it's so disheartening for one or two shots to hit, pen, and then get shrugged off by a save.

      I feel like I'm coming off a baby... A whiny player who can't deal with flyers...

      Delete
    6. JayDee have you got to play against the new Tau yet? I am wondering how a Riptide or 2 would do against the croissan'wich armada.

      Delete
    7. I have but it was a smaller game. He had two broadsides. Managed to down 1 out of 2 scythes.

      Try using the equipment that gives interceptor with the ion accelerator. 3 Strength 7 shots with a 48(?) Inch rage iirc is pretty good.

      Delete
    8. But know I have no idea how to use the new Tau like some do. I could help Necron fight Tau but I don't enough to help Tau fight Necron currently.

      Delete
    9. Land raiders and terminators, heldrake does jack squat to them, da have the tools to deal with csm if used right. Also mysterious objectives can grant skyfire.... The biggest flier pain atm is the cron one for dropping troops on objectives late game, not much you can do to stop it.

      Delete
    10. Agreed Thingy. Also if all else fails, ally with Tau, Skyfire/interceptor Riptide. Done.

      Delete
  7. Ignore them. There are plenty of ways to negate them without taking them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ignore a helldrake. Ignore a flyer that literally remove upwards of 1 full tactical squad a turn....

      Delete
    2. If a full tactical squad are close enough together to all fit under the template, you're kind of asking for it

      Delete
    3. Don't forget the vector strike!

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  8. Excellent post, man! I was so absorbed while reading. I would have to agree. Me and my friends always agree or disagree to flyers or AA options. Simple because it's fair. If he takes a hell drake in a 1000 point match and I don't bring any AA... Ugh. We all had to buy aegis defense lines to be able to compete with him. GW loves this... Lol it's unfortunate but at least it is getting all our codecs up to date :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here's my thought on this. In war, you don't get to choose what you fight against, and often don't know what will come up. I don't disagree with you and your friend's method, to each his own. But for those who constantly complain fowl, I say get over it. You don't like fliers? Too bad, I don't like Space Marines... Doesn't mean I'm going to tell people don't use them.

      Delete
    2. Agreed, Aaron. Adapt or die if your in the competitive scene or just talk it out with your friends.

      Delete
    3. besides, flyers look cool. My group is the least competitive group and we bought flyers cause of how they look. Flyers haven't taken any fun out of the game.

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
  9. My approach to a lot of things I can't directly take on is to play a neutralisation game. With 5th Ed CSM I was regularly pitted against two hard-as-nails Daemon Princes, and the models I wanted to build (my primary interest, over playing), couldn't handily defeat them. Instead I mobbed up on them with cheaper units and kept them out of the game for a sufficient number of turns to gain ground elsewhere.

    With flyers now, I firstly take advantage of the fact that they aren't appearing until turn 2 minimum, and then I lure them into a game of 'chase the expendable Cultist unit'. Highly enjoyable watching squishy minions running around the battlefield getting toasted by an angry Heldrake, while the rest of my army calmly gets on with taking objectives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or, if I want a more direct approach, I find that a unit of Havocs all toting lascannons solves most problems...

      Delete
  10. Flyers are fine, the anti-air options are getting more and more. There are plenty of ways to deal with them, or to ignore them.

    It is a good topic though, as this conversation is rampant throughout or community right now.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How can daemons deal with them?

      Vector strikes? Against a Nightscythe you're getting 2 hits, needing a 5 to glance. Statistically, you won't.

      Which means you need three or more to glance it to death. Skyfire Soulgrinders? OK, but then you can't shoot you main weapon at a ground target. As for armour 12, that's just a dream to nobble.

      Basically you're forced to invest nigh on 500-750 points just to manage enemy flyers as you have absolutely no counter to them whatsoever.

      All it would have taken was for screamers of Tzeentch to be able to assault them, or just a few pips more strength as points upgrades.

      It's just another area where Daemons got booted and a clear opportunity missed.

      Delete
    2. FMC can vector strike flyers. Daemons have plenty of them.

      Delete
    3. Between FMC, Soul Grinders, Divination and so on. Daemons have plenty of options. Ally with CSM to get even more. DOn't forget greater daemons unlock regular DP as heavy support. Flyers that can land and wreck face.

      Delete
    4. I play daemons and have had little difficulty against enemy fliers....also an aegis with quad gun manned by bllod letters works great. Especially if its a free unit from a portalglyph, then put your nurfle soul frinder behind the defence line as well for a sweet 2+ cover.

      Delete
    5. Ugh auto correct on my phone, I realy have to proof read more.

      Delete
  11. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  13. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  15. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I play a 5-6 drop pod space wolves list so no flyers or flakk for me. Don't really fear them though and just adjust tactics to suit. Points spent on flyers means less on the ground and having a drop pod list in your face turn 1 I suppose ruins a flyers fun/plans. If the worst comes to the worst I'll crack out my spare Tau for allies.

    ReplyDelete
  19. And this is why I have a daemon prince with wings. it's a no brainer, it's a flyer but not. took it before flying, but now it's awesome.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dear Devs,

    the rock is imbalanced. Paper is OK.

    Regards,

    Scissors

    ReplyDelete
  21. Heldrake are owerpowered
    Night Schythe and Vendetta are underpriced
    Nephelim sucks
    Other flyers are ok.

    At our FLGS, we only have one player fielding more than 1 flyer at times. 3 Vendetta. It sucks to face them because while he's a average player, he manages to beat better opponents because our regular list are not meant to deal with that many flyers. That's why I punish him with FW models when he insist on playing like this. That our I play with someone else.

    In time I think flyers will balance as codex are redone but Nephelim and Heldrake will definitly need to be FAQed.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Not gonna lie, I've used flyers.... And I hate them.

    In fact, I hate allies AND flyers.....

    ReplyDelete
  23. To the Author: Having literally just submitted a philosophy paper on Gauthier's solution to the cooperating in prisoners' dilemma situations, I found this particularly entertaining!

    ReplyDelete
  24. I didn't see anyone mention this but with the prisoners' dilemma the values are usually negative.

    Before the new CSM codex I never ran fliers and I always focused on killing an opponent's ground forces. I never seemed to have much of a problem, but the Helldrake was a bit of a game changer in that regard.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I don't really get it...what's the problem with flyers?
    Yes, they are new. But how that this is something bad I don't see. It's a bit like saying "I think AV14 is bad as you have to spend a lot of points to kill it". Yeah, some flyers are stronger and some are weaker. Some armies have better access to them than others (since not all codices can be updated at the same time)...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Having had this discussion a lot, this is what my group has found. Fliers are an absolutely great concept. I really do enjoy the idea of them, and would take them if I was willing to pay for them I like the infantryman too much, very much so a boots on the ground kind of person. I have no problem with some being stronger than others, that makes sense, same for access.

      The problem with fliers is that they were not implemented well. Death From the Skies would have been an awesome compendium book IF it had a section for each army detailing their fliers and their ground-based counters to fliers. Simply including options that already existing models could take (Flakk missiles to all missile launcher units, skyfire for appropriate units like the Skyray, etc) would have made the reception of these rules so much better in my opinion. This is where flyers get the hate the most.

      Delete
  26. Good news for all, there are available Long Beach, Los Angeles, Lynwood, Malibu, Manhattan Beach, Maywood, Hermosa Beach, Hidden Hills, Huntington Park, Industry, Inglewood, Irwindale, La Cañada
    Flintridge, La Habra Heights, La Mirada, La Puente, La Verne, Lakewood, Lancaster, Lawndale, Lomita, Monrovia,If you want to get any information about these, please visit this site. It is great and informative site.
    Flyers

    ReplyDelete

 
Top
Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...