This is part of two of my obsessiveness about dice. Yes, I have bought dice by the pound, and am not ashamed to admit it. In fact, I have Mcmenamin's Beer Jars full of dice. I know most of you do not know what that is, but picture a very large Jar that is meant for holding beer.. This is about  more research I have put into dice.

(this is a repost from some time ago. I am in route to Valhalla, and am currently trying to get a little sleep the night before.)

Part two is about my own research into dice, and how expensive casino quality "small" dice can be. In fact, small 1/2" Casino dice with your color choice are available. They generally run about $8 apiece, and come in different colors.

Casino Dice are 3/4" dice and are ridiculous to roll on a warhammer table. Yes I have seen a lot of people do this. If you are going to go through the problem of finding dice like these, please find some 1/2" ones. I have done this research in the past, and here is the link.
http://www.pokerchest.com/casino-dice-game.html

You may be able to find cheaper ones.

Now lets move past Casino Dice, because there is something out there called precision dice. Basically these are dice makers that work their butts off to make dice that statistically accurate. The link above to the 1/2" casino dice calls their dice precision dice as well (because they are too small for a casino).

A company called Gamescience makes a great dice product, and in fact, I own many of their dice. So do several of my friends. While this guy that makes these dice is a little bit obsessive.... like myself.... but i think he beats me a little, I do like his dice.

I am including his videos here, because he discusses something of value in his videos........ how dice are made. Here are his videos. Really its not important to watch the whole thing, and I suggest not doing so, unless you have 20 minutes to kill.





You can buy them from his site, which links you to gamestation anyways, or you can go straight to gamestation. Simply go to gamestation and they have a dice search boxes along the left hand side of the page. You want d6, and precision dice.
http://www.gamescience.com/
http://www.gamestation.net/

Ok, I am done with dice for a bit. I hope for those of you about to begin on your Holy Quest for the Holy Grail get it going a lot quicker than I did. I am still on it, although I do really like the precision dice that Gamescience makes. However, once you are spending money on quality dice, look at GW's new Munitorium dice, and suddenly the price for what you get is looking very good. Thus far.... two games in, my dice are rolling a very noticeable average.

Please do not go beyond crazy..... with dice.
More subjects on dice that you can do your own research on.... is something called practiced rolling. It does happen, and its a good subject to know about (so that you can make sure your opponent is not doing it in tournaments). There really are people in this world that are good at practiced rolling and some professional Craps Players, but lets not get paranoid. Lets get back to the table top for some 40k.  : )

11 Comments:

  1. I keep on looking at the poker chest site and I have to warn anyone that is thinking about buying from them. There are just too many red flags.

    First off, I wonder how precise those "precision" dice can be when they don't even understand their measurements. What I mean is that 1/2" dice are not 12mm. They're 13-14mm. It doesn't build much confidence when they're off the measurement by a fair amount.

    Secondly, they say that these are the same dice used in Vegas. No they're not. Look at the tolerance for size deviation. 0.1mm? A Casino dice is made to the tolerance of 0.0005".

    Another weird thing: What quantity are they selling. $35 for how many?

    If you want Casino, precision dice, go to Amazon and buy them. They're around $10/5dice. Expensive, yes. Still cheaper than Poker Chest's.

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    Replies
    1. It does say its a set of 5 for 35 :)

      The rest is definitely a red flag.

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    2. 1/2" is not 13-14 mm either. It is exactly 0.5*25.4 mm = 12.7 mm.

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    3. Also the best I could find for good dice were backgammon dice as someone else in the previous thread mentioned.

      A site I found but have not ordered from yet is:
      http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.com/p/battledice.html

      Delete
  2. a search for "precision d6 inked" on gamestation.net seems to provide what most people will be looking for.

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  3. I really don't think either of these dice studies are particularly good. Neither of them takes into account a bunch of factors that make a big difference: dice contact and contact with the table surface/terrain which is generally rough. I'll stick with my cheap GW ones thanks.

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    Replies
    1. those other factors are all external to the dice. the studies were about randomness of the dice themselves and provided information to the players so they can then be able to purchase the closest thing to 'average' dice there is. Since you read this and choose to use GW/chessex dice, then you are effectively choosing to cheat, since you now know that GW/Chessex dice roll a higher percentage of 1's than they should.

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  4. Really interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing it!

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  5. After a horrible streak of "luck" with my Chessex dice, I started performing chi-squared tests on all of them. It wasn't my imagination; many were unbalanced and rolled ones and twos much more often than they should. One die rolled ones over 27% of the time. The worst dice failed the test after less than 90 rolls. Other members of my gaming group have also found that many Chessex and GW dice with rounded corners are unbalanced.

    I now have 36 Munitorum dice: 12 red ones and 24 black ones. I tested all of them with most of them being rolled at least 500 times (less if the numbers showed they were obviously balanced). Out of all 36, only two actually failed testing and those required upwards of 500 rolls to show that they were unbalanced.

    We spend so much money and time on our games that it doesn't make sense to ruin them with unbalanced dice. If you don't want to spend several dollars per die, and if you don't mind spending a few hours doing it, you can always test your dice and discard the bad ones.

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  6. The problem about this guy is, he isn't rolling in warhammer mode. He takes ONE die, and then he does a test, and then he finds out that this stonewashed die is not perfect (of course not!)

    There are high-rollers and low-rollers, there are also dies with an exceptional high number of 3's or 4's.

    But the point is, that doesn't matter.

    We do use the dies in a 2-stage-model:

    First, we randomly take some dies that we want to roll. Maybe we get only 6's dies or 1's dies, maybe we get a good average of mixed dies. This is the first part of randomness in 40k.

    The second step is, we roll the dies with all their failures. Some roll low, some high, for to-hit.

    All the high-rolling dies will be re-rolled for to-wound.

    At this stage, the notorious and extreme low-rollers should already be sorted out.

    Then, we re-roll the high results AGAIN, but this time for protection. So the notorious, extreme high-rollers that did hurt you before are the same dices that protect you now.

    That's why the warhammer 40k game system has a built-in protection against bad dices. Just make sure that you and your opponent use the same dices, and for armor save please use exactly the same dices which were hurting you before, and all of the mal-fabrication is going to sort itself out.

    In fact, i'm a little dice nerd, too. I already have a software on my pc that can use a Webcam to read dices, and i had a completed concept to build a dicing machine for the USB. I also did buy all the necessary parts already. They rest in peace next to my orks, between the Meganobs and the Battlewagons.

    I will not build it.

    First, to have a good die profile, you need to throw every single die around 10 000 times. No problem for the machine. But for the die it causes a problem: Afterwards, it is not the same as it used to be before the test.

    Second, what to do with the profile? Afterwards i KNOW: this dice likes the 5, this one likes the 1, and so on. If i use a die that likes the 1 for morale test, it's cheating. If i put it in the bin, it's waste. If i sell it on ebay complete with the profile, other people will be cheating. As i like games, and cheating destroys games, i won't do that.

    Third, the test will never be like the gaming table. There are tables with hard ground, others with soft ground, some players will use a little tray with felt on it. Which underground should i use in the test? The dices behave different on different undergrounds! In order not to destroy the dice too much during the test, i would have used felt. Many gaming tables, on the other hand, have a hard, sanded & painted surface. This uses up the dices rather fast, thus destroying the carefully measured dice profile. On the other hand, the results are much (!!) more random on hard ground, so the problem is less big than suspected. Casino dices, on the other hand, will loose their perfection right after the first time you roll them on a sanded surface. You can account them for "destroyed" in terms of accurateness after they touched a hard, uneven ground.

    Fourth, coming back to the beginning: If you don't know the behaviour of your dices, you will choose some of your dices randomly. So you will have some dices in your hand that are liking the 1 or 2, and some others that are liking the 5 or 6. This, after all, makes your result random, even if your dices aren't perfectly random.

    If you really fear your dices, test them like 500 times maximum. If there is a really big failure, you should detect it by then. Big means, if one number is rolled 4% more (or less) than 16,7%. If there is a inaccurateness of 2,5% or less, forget it. To be more exact it's neccessary to roll of MUCH more often.
    After, you should take your suspected dices and try another 500. With the collected 1000 rolls, it had it's second change, and you may judge. Don't do more. It costs too much time, and the dice is not getting better through the process.

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  7. I just ordered ten dice from battleschool. I will post a review when i get them. I really feel like these will be even better than the gamescience dice (but twice as much with shipping about 7 bucks a dice. For my peace of mind i am more than willing to pay that premium. They also offer custom designs so i plan on getting a scatter die and some custom nurgle dice.

    ReplyDelete

 
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