Two sides are locked in a heated close combat, the marines are going to lose. The librarian looks over and sees a clear spot of terrain and declares he using Gate of Infinity to teleport there. Can this be done?

Rules of Our Game is a weekly post regarding rules problems. I run across tons of rules questions each week, and I think almost every person in our hobby should keep an eye out for things like these. It helps us when we finally come across such problems or weak spots in the rules of the game. Comments and "Your Wrong!" are very appreciated with this series, as navigating the rules of our game can be quite treacherous.

The question is, "Can a librarian use Gate of Infinity to teleport out of close combat?". Since we are also trying to navigate this one, lets add one, Can a Librarian use Gate of Infinity to teleport out of a vehicle?"

Gate of Infinity
This power is used at the beginning of the librarian's movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules. If the librarian travels alone, there is no risk, but if he takes a unit with him, there is a chance something will go wrong. If the deep strike attempt scatters and a double is rolled, one member of the unit, chosen by the controlling player, is claimed by the warp and removed as a casualty.


The Arguments:

1.You cannot use movement to get out of close combat, and Deep Striking is movement. So no, you cannot use to the power to get out of close combat

2. Gate of Infinity is not a deep strike, but uses the deep strike rules for placement on the table. It is not movement, so yes you can gate out of close combat.

3. It does not matter if deep striking is movement, because the rule for the power states that the librarian and unit are removed from the table top and then placed on the table using the deep strike rules.

4. The rule set is permissive, since it does not say you can teleport out of close combat (like the necron ability) you cannot.

This one I beleive truly falls into that grey area of the rules. I really think it could go either way. In friendly games I have no problems having someone use this power to move out of close combat. In a tournament, it is a good one to question. It's rules questions like this that make playing some units very annoying and a pain in the butt to use.

Gating out of a transport, there is the additional problem
The power states that the librarian is removed from the tabletop. If he is in a transport, is he considered to be on the tabletop?

I am hoping that the readers here might just be able to close the gap on this one. I lean towards the "No you cannot Gate out of close combat". However, I think this is one of the tougher ones in the game. Hopefully I hit most of the talking points, so we can get down to some clarification.


14 Comments:

  1. IMHO, he could use it to get out of combat, as he is just being removed from the table, but not out of a vehicle, as he is not on the table, as you said above.

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  2. tough one, it doesn't say anything about cc(like the necron ability you mention) but it does say deep strike similarly to the marloc. My only issue with the latter idea is that the marloc rule says you are placed back in reserve to be deployed using deep strike the next round, this ability just states that your deployment is similar to deep strike(think scarabs in necrons, they are considered infantry but they move like jetbikes). I would lean on the side of no pulling out of CC because the rule does not specifically state that you are either going into reserve to be redeployed nor does it state that you can pull out of cc. I think i would want the person wanting to do it to cite another place where a rule allows them to pull out with out specifically stating it, seems like we have two reasons against and none for.

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  3. I would ask if models get a movement phase if they are locked in combat.

    "This power is used at the beginning of the librarian's movement phase."

    The power is used at beginning of the Librarian's movement phase. If he can move during the movement phase while locked in combat, yes. If not, no.

    Now using it from inside a vehicle. This one is sticky. Does the power allow the Librarian to move twice? Can he move 6" then Gate of Infinity 24? Reason for asking is if the vehicle moved then he cannot move. If it didn't then he can.

    Anyone else with me that Gate of Infinity should an Eldar only power? What is up with taking away all the cool stuff from other races that were in older editions and giving them to Space Marine's/esq?

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  4. What I think is silly is that vanilla marine librarians get null zone, and GK librarians don't. Seems like it should be the other way around. (gee, what army has nothing but invulnerables?...) Also, "Grey Knight Librarian" is ALMOST redundant, they're all psykers...

    Oh, and the vehicle thing- it couldn't move 6 in, then gate- it's at the beginning of the movement phase.

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  5. Interesting questions.

    Regarding the second point, 'The Summoning' in the Grey Knight codex operates in a similar (yet reversed fashion) and uses the same phrasing of 'removed from the tabletop and immediately placed ... using the deep strike rules'.
    As such I'd say that since an FAQ confirmed that The Summoning can't transport a unit in a building or vehicle, the same would apply for 'The Gate of Infinity'.

    Transporting out of combat is less clear as while the Necron Veil of Darkness and Ork 'Ere We Go psychic power are specifically detailed as working even in combat as per point 4 you made above, The Summoning specifically notes it cannot leaving The Gate of Infinity unclear.
    I lean towards you not being able to gate out of combat however.

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  6. I'd personally allow it, because it makes for awesome flavor (or for GW, flavour). However, when it comes to rules, I honestly don't know. I want to say yes out of CC and no out of vehicles, but I can't find any rules back-up, just a gut instinct.

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  7. Out of a transport, I'd say no.
    As to close combat, technically the unit are unable to move so no movement phase. But I'd allow it, and not just as I like to use this power, with a minor alteration. After succesfully passing the Ld test to use the power both units roll Ld again, if the oposing squad wins the test the whole combat is moved

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  8. I think since when the unit is locked in combat, it technically does not have a movement or shooting phase, so no, a Librarian cannot use Gate of Infinity in CC.
    That would mean e.g. a group of terminators with a Terminator Librarian can teleport out of CC and shoot the hell out of the enemy unit, which is fluffy, but seems a little bit odd to me.
    Maybe if using fluff then only the Librarian could get out of CC but not the attached unit. They simply don't have time in a cc brawl to gather around the Librarian. But that's only fluff. So no, my opinion is that Gate of Infinity cannot be used in CC.

    Regarding vehicles - it's again comes down to a poorly designed concept of vehicles. (e.g. you can shoot out from an open topped vehicle but you cannot harm guys in said vehicle with a flamer for example...)

    The main problem comes from the fact that in 40k, the interior of the vehicle and the unit traveling in it are not specified by ruling. The unit inside a vehicle simply does not exist rules-wise until they get out. (Like, when there is a penetrating hit on a vehicle, in reality, a bombshell goes through the vehicle armor and says hi to the guys inside. There should be some effect like "transported member(s) take(s) wound(s) or something like that.)
    Since the interior is not specified by ruling, it is wise to be consistent by how internal units and vehicles interact. Sine there is no way to interact with the unit inside a vehicle, units inside should not be able to affect the tabletop without getting out. I know Eldar overrule this since they can uye psychic powers from inside a vehicle, which is a cool idea (hell they ARE psykers, metal does not stop psychic powers... Let's talk about how power armor stops mental psychic powers and how Rhino hulls stop the Doom of Malan'tai powers from being usable... I think there should be some kind of... psychic defense save or hell knows what against psychihc attacks, not armor, and... what, cover? The TREE saves my brain from being burned? They never read X-Men comics I guess.)

    So, we yet again see a prime example of how the various army books and main rules are not coherently designed... Hope 6th edition will change that. (Like cover save should be against to hit, because the bush can hide you from a sniper, but it definitely will not prevent a krak missile to blast you from the face of Earth. Now it does. Just like a tree prevents your brain from burning. I thing the next Marine faction should be Bushman Marines, who do not use power armor, but use bushes on all models. 4+ cover is hell way better then 3+ power armor... Rant over.)

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  9. I actually see it as an easier solution, a model locked in close combat does not have a movement phase. They ignore all phases prior to CC while locked in close combat.

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  10. They still have a movement phase. Just because someone isn't allowed to move doesn't mean they don't have a movement phase. You are a player who follows the different phases of the game turn. It is not the models who have these phases individualy.
    I would argue that if they didn't want people teleporting out of cc then they would have stated it in the rules of the power.
    So in friendly games I'd argue that you could do it. But obviously at a tournement I would get a judges ruling. Also send GW a letter and hope they clarify it at some point in the near future. But as it stants, without it saying yes or no either way, it's up to the players involved in the game where the situation arises.

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  11. I'd say yes gate of infinity can be used to teleport out of a vehicle since the librarian IS considered to be on the table, not targetable but still on the table ruleswise, while not physically, as all transported models do not fit into the vehicles physically, normally.

    Using it to get out of CC I'd say: -NO WAY! you cannot get out of CC unless specifically allowed such as: Necron veil of darkness, orks ere we go, eldar skyleap.

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  12. I think that the power shouldn't be used even from a vehicle. The Librarian would have to start from the table board. This beacause I recently asked a clarification to GW customer service about new veil of darkness and transports. It seems that the cryptek has to disembarked to use it.

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  14. Hmm just my opinions but is a model on the 2nd floor of a ruin or inside a bastion on the table?
    Or if it's your last unit at the end of your turn are you considered tabled? No?
    Pg 93 BRB states how being in a building is just like being in a transport.
    Taking the literal meaning for on the table is pointless.
    So I would conclude that yes you can GOI out of a vehicle as it is on the table and your are embarked upon it.

    For jumping out of CQC your units don't "lose" their movement phase they are just too busy to move same for shooting (Pg 28 BRB).
    So the Librarian does have a beginning to his movement phase so again I would say yes he can use GOI.

    If anyone can find rules that contradict this it'd be interesting to read and posting which book and page would help, I'm always in favor for C:SM as I use two librarians as my HQ's in rhinos with 9 sternguard using force dome to protect the vehicle on the way up and the unit afterwards. To be fair I haven't had to use GOI out the transport but I think it should work. Push comes to shove use the most important rule (Pg 4 BRB( 4+ it happens 3- it doesn't.

    Final note's if you try and argue "your" codex says different as a "similar" rule like the necron one posted above then stop, it's a different rule entirely and it doesn't matter what that rule says it only matters what GOI does say and how that interacts with the BRB.
    Secondly I guess all my drop pods can only carry 10 guys instead of 12 same for my phobos land raider as you know in the DA book says... Wait no I can take 12? Sweet... :)

    Final final note sorry for being a douche' but I have a DA playing friend that keeps telling me "my" rules from his codex.
    So yes lysander re-rolls heavy bolters as it's not their standard of devastation.
    Yes I can force dome from a transport as it's not a power field generator and finally yes i can carry 12 troops in my LR and DP.

    GLHF and happy war gaming.

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