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Black Templars: In the Space Marine Codex


Well, its been found, and I've read it. The Black Templars are officially part of the Space Marine codex. Before readers get upset about it, Robbin Cruddace talks very specifically about the subject in the September White Dwarf.


I will not quote what is said, for obvious reasons. Here is a rundown of what is important.

*The Black Templar are now part of the Space Marine codex
*Black Templar are the only chapter with access to Crusader Squads with Land Raider dedicated transports. Also the only chapter with Emperor's Champions.
*Allows many more units and flexibility being apart of the Space Marine codex.
*Unique Black Templar background and lore is in the codex as well.
*Each of the first founding chapters and the Black Templar have access to unique chapter tactics for their chapter.
*Imperial Fists are seige specialists and tank hunters
*Salamanders are flame weapon experts
*There are 30 successor chapters mentioned in the new codex.


I take this to meaning that the Black Templar will be getting their own supplement. As well as others like the Imperial Fists and Salamanders.

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183 Comments

  1. Just what I thought

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  2. Presumably it means although chapters that get a limited edition cover get a supplement. The Big Question, will it be the same cover?

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  3. Awesome the supplements are going to be awesome

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  4. I for one am happy about this. To me it means that anyone who doesn't take this game with the same seriousness a zealot takes to his flog will be able to justify using Templar units as part of their own marine force.

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    1. Templar players who aren't zealots aren't really Templar players :P

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    2. I though GW wasnt going to shelve any more armies after squats, well this sure as hell feels like getting shelved

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  5. You've read the WD or the codex?

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  6. Well, at least we have exclusive rights to certain units... Still not happy about these Ultramarines Shackles around my wrists and ankles.

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    1. They don't exist. This isn't Codex Ultramarines (who will be getting their own supplement too, mind you).

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    2. It is a Codex Asartes book and thus it is an Ultra Marine Book, the Codex Asartes was written by their Primarch after all.

      True Black Templar players don't need whirlwinds and devastators.

      Now it seems I either take Chaplain OR a Marshal because the Champion now takes up a HQ slot. I always thought that they should have more chaplains in their forces as how fanatical they are. They could be used like they are in Blood Angels and help guide the horde to their targets. I would go for lesser chaplains for that purpose, maybe even imperial priests. That's just a thought I had.

      Maybe a flier and the close combat centurions are the only things that I would want or even fit in a Black Templar force. I would rather get one or two more unique units like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels have. Really the only Marine force that is more divergent than the Black Templars are The Space Wolves.

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  7. Not sue if I am happy or upset. I was really hoping BT would get their own codex. Well, now I can hope they get their own supplement, maybe December? Let's see what the WD has to say next month.

    On the plus side, I can easily combine BT with my Raven Guard... maybe!

    ...damn

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  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  9. No new Templar specific units though :(

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    1. We don't know... Naftka says that "Allows many more units and flexibility being apart of the Space Marine codex."... maybe there will be new units...

      Independent Neophytes, maybe with bikes... we know nothing.

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    2. Well, consider the units now available to the Black Templars. There are many that are not in the Templar Dex. Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Whirlwind Tanks. Scout squads (if these can be neophytes, imagine neophytes with sniper rifles)... alot to well round the dex. Not only that, as it is Codex Space Marines, and noone has mentioned this yet, you will be able to have Space Marines, and Black Templars, and one allied force.

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  10. Now that the Templars are in the codex, we just gotta force em to read it.

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    1. Uh, you can. I ain't telling a Templar to do anything.

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  11. Nobody ever doubted GW will release "thebestofthebestofthebest" codex with lot of cheeze, we've accustomed to it. But looking at the range of miniatures for SM, I wonder why CSM got no at least 50% of what SM did. Dynobots? Arsedrake? Mutilators? Damn it. I'm not SM player and won't buy anything, but will look into possibility of tactical SMs conversion into CSM.
    I demand CSM supplements, ex- Thousand Sons Legion warbands, ex- Emperor's Children Legion warbands most of all.

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    1. I demand that all of these people that have such a sense of entitlement that play 40K to go away.

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    2. Third!

      Besides, supplements are coming for Chaos, but the deity-specific ones are...complicated. It's difficult to make a World Eaters supplement, for example, that permits them to be primarily CC without being completely broken or completely terrible. Plus, there will be model releases alongside many of the CSM Supplements.

      Right now the focus is on ensuring every book has model representation for each unit entry. Updates to old models and supplements will come later. That's how they will continue to feed 6th.

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    3. I'm actually so tired of Chaos Marines getting a half-arsed release and Space Marines getting a huge release every edition that I think I'm just going to go ahead and do what other people do... build one power armored army and play whatever I feel like, and count them as a Chaos Marine warband.

      Deal With It.

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    4. As customers, we can demand anything we like. It's not entitlement; it's our money. However, it is more useful to take your demands directly to GW.

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    5. I've thought on your demand, Harrower, and find it inappropriate. It is declined. I suggest you and all those simplistic pour echo souls to google for 'hyperbole', it should enrich your experience in both web and live communication, I believe.

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    6. @Tadakatsu Looks like I struck a nerve. I don't need to "enrich my experience in both web and live communication". I think you need to heed your own advice and learn how to communicate when you type. You sound like a whining kid and I'm not the only that thinks so.

      @BigKitGuy We absolutely can and there is nothing wrong with that, but cluttering up the comment section here with these types of comments is the equivalent of opening your back door and shouting to the heavens.

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    7. @Harrower
      You eagerly give advices, but hardly receive ones. Yet, someone's words, which you weren't even able to understand, make you so annoyed. Calling someone a kid is a true course to show how adult your opinion is, go on.
      I was just using a strong word, to underline my hobbyist's passion and my contempt toward late GW marketing policy, just to make it clear.

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    8. Chaos Marines got 2 new heavy support options. 2 new fast attack 1 new troop choice, 1 new elite 2 new HQ choices.

      Assuming the rumors hold true, ignoreing the gains the black templar fold in will net space marine players and including the two fliers, and assuming we've not got any unreported suprises coming yet. Space Marines are getting, 3 new heavy support options (I'm assuming centurions are one type of unit here with a choice of assault or devestator modes although that's a choice that could be wrong) and one new fast attack.
      If you remove the stormtalen and stormraven from the list. the space marines are only gaining 2 units, with 2 varients each. plsu whatever assorted stuff is shoved in there from the black templars.
      Yes there's gonna be expanded chapter rules, but CSMs have their marks of chaos etc which are clearly where the devs expect a CSM to start customizing his chaos warband.

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    9. @Tadakatsu
      Dude, I'm not looking for an argument and I'll gladly take advice from anyone, but facts are facts and I wasn't the one who was called out because how one of my posts came across. That was on you and I wasn't the only one that thought so. Instead of taking the criticism, you decided to tell me I don't know how to communicate which is pretty typical for most idiots on the internet.

      I'm not saying you are a whining kid, I'm saying that is how your post come across to not only me, but to a bunch of other readers. I would think someone who is intelligent enough to know what hyperbole is would also be smart enough to realize that there is almost no way to convey that or sarcasm in a written post to everyone that is reading it. Sorry if you took offense, but if you are going to write posts in that tone (regardless of what you intended) that's how some people are going to interpret them.

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    10. There are things I wish were in the Chaos Space Marines codex but the recent releases are great.

      It's a matter of taste but how do daemonic machine-beasts not fit into the army? These are CHAOS Space Marines, not just traitor marines.

      There are many things that would have been great like a new Chaos Land Raider variant, Berzerkers on Juggernauts, Rubric and/or Noise Dreadnoughts, Cult Terminators and Dreadclaws (from FW to codex) for example and maybe some tweaks on the Champion of Chaos rule but I'm tired of people writing the new Chaos stuff as half-assed.

      Remember that Chaos Space Marines are one army out of over a dozen.

      By the way one cool idea for Night Lords players is to use a winged Sorceror or Daemon Prince with Telepathy - it's an effective use of fear (ie. fighting Invisible units is like failing a Fear test).

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  12. What are the rules for raven guard please? I will be very happy if I know them :)

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  13. I can't see how BT players wouldn't be happy with this.
    Point a, they get their codex earlier than planned.
    Point b, they get access to presumably everything regular marines get. And some more.
    Point c, they may still get a supplement for more BT flavour.
    Point d, this will ensure that they are being kept up to date when it comes to rules without the need for an FAQ next time C:SM get an update... because they'll be C:SM.

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    1. Except that Black Templars aren't Codex Space Marines.

      The current established fluff goes out of its way to say that BT don't abide by the codex astartes and prefer their own tactics which is part of why they were so attractive to me when I started collecting them. They always skirt that line between loyal knights and renegade chapter. By putting them in the main space marine codex they are delegating them to "just another chapter" status, at least until they release a supplement and who knows when that will happen.

      Really though, it's a disappointment and a bit of a slap in the face to anyone who has created this army with the idea that it was stand alone.

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    2. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but isn't this more of a personal issue than game flaw? I love my BTs, and no matter what book they're in, I'll still follow their fluff and disregard certain units to keep it that way. I don't need a book twisting my arm in order to maintain their fluff. I can see how being wrapped into a vanilla book feels like an insult to their status, but once one lets that go, it's easy to find benefits to this situation.

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    3. you're assuming that the 6th edition codex will follow the 5th edition codex of focusing exclusively on codex astartes force structure. Clearly, that's not the case. Could be augmented to be even less the case with a supplement.

      nobody has slapped you anywhere. At least, not yet -- I'd wait to see how the execution turns out

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    4. I'd be reluctant to say that putting them in the codex makes them "just another chapter" automatically. I imagine all the same fluff to be there including their divergence from the codex itself.

      Still, even though I am not a BT player I would have liked to have seen them get a full codex as I think their a very cool, very interesting Chapter. Here's hoping after this they get a good supplement.

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    5. totally cpnsptr, plus keep in mind that the supplements will include more unique rules as they progress, potentially even unique units.

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    6. @Chris Kyle: This will be the largest codex they've ever printed. Black Templars (from what I got to read) will have their own section, their own units, and their own rules; PLUS access to some vanilla stuff. They are not just following Index Astartes with a black & white paint job.

      Trust me, you will have never seen anything like this before. A supplement is also on the way.

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    7. I didn't consider it a personal attack, but the idea was posed that BT players should somehow be happy that they were losing their stand alone codex and therefore part of what made them unique. Regardless of what the fluff says, if they're rolled into the SM codex then they lose their individuality and are put in the position where any BT player has to rely on the possibility that maybe we'll get a supplement somewhere down the road that restores some of that uniqueness. I'll reserve final judgement until I see how this is executed, but the invalidation of an entire codex is not some nonchalant "oh well" moment for those who play the army

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    8. I can see your point, for sure, but everything I've read so far points to BTs getting chapter-specific units and rule tweaks (the book is supposedly many pages larger than all the other codexes to date). It's quite possible to keep an army's flavor while wrapping them into a big book, so long as it's done right. I'm not defending GW per se--they might still wreck the army with this change--but personally it's the rules that matter, not individual books.

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    9. @McDoogle, If that's the case then it would go a long way to allaying my concerns.

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    10. my gut feeling is if they do this the first supplement outta be black templars, but this could end up basicly being a supplement for BTs within the codex

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    11. Chris Kyle: As people have already stated, you will have access to your original units, and all the other units from C:SM. How is that a bad situation? If anything it will make your army more flexible and competitive. Now judging by your comments, you seem like quite the fluff bunny. I don't see how this will alter or twist your arm, you can still run a mono-fluff build, and I'll be happy to shuriken you off the table for it ;)

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    12. Argentius: I feel like you didn't quite absorb what I was saying. It's a bad situation if it's being rolled into the SM codex with only fluff and nominal "unique" units, a la Pedro Kantor, a single HQ and chapter tactics. McDoogle is claiming that this is not the case and that BT will end up being more of an "army within an army" with its own feel separate from that of other chapters. If that's the case then great, I'd still be disappointed at the loss of a stand alone codex, but I could live with that.

      What I couldn't live with is if Black Templars simply become normal space marines with expanded fluff, a black and white color scheme, and a themed army. If I wanted that I might as well play a Ravenguard assault list and hope for a supplement.

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    13. A BT "mini-dex" inside an enlarged SM codex could work. OTOH, a BA, DA & SW "mini-dex" would also work. The fluff could be compressed to a few pages, the different units would fit in a few pages and a stripped down version of any chapter specific rules would also fit in a page or two.

      Actually, for me, a deal breaker would be some of the sheer stupidity I've been reading about BTs somehow being stuck with BS3....uhh, guys, by fluff *most* BT use bolters, not BP/CCW and "close combat" includes point blank fire as well as sticking them with steel. They are still Marines.

      Otherwise, I'll remain optimistic, because the main codex + supplement concept potentially allows for lots of stuff that isn't normally covered in series of codices that have to replicate a lot of the same material. Things like the BT having their own forgeships AND Techmarines who are definitely not suck ups to the Mechanicum. Lots of potential right there.

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    14. didnt u say that black templars where not in the codex a few articles ago? now you have seen the codex? man you change your tune quick mcdoogle.

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    15. My opinion is if Templars should be absorbed into C:SM then why doesn't BA, DA, & SWolves aswell.
      I'm a Templar player, and it only bothers me about are codex disappearing cause those other codices are still their own books, also the fact that this will make it harder to make a Templars only army ( not to mention the fact that I'll have to buy the codex and the supplement ( who knows when that'll release ) which will make them more expensive.
      So they should absorb all of the SM codexes into one codex with supplements each.
      Then we can finally get some new Sisters;)

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    16. Most Templar players were looking for new codex SINCE 5th ed but it turns out we will be mixed to C:SM. The feeling of hoping too much for a long time then it will be come out what we don't expected. Try to look to that point, maybe you didn't notice because you have updated your codices long before. The long time we endure fighting 5th and 6th ed armies we didn't loose courage to fight but to make that step, sure some part of us fell sad and disappointed.

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  14. Still find this really odd... going to be interesting to see.

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  15. Very good news, gives BT players their updates (and with the mini codex they had they won't lose anything) and frees up space for other releases.

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    1. Now if only they'd do this with Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels, we'd have half a year each edition to devote to other armies that need it worse than they do... like Sisters of Battle!

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    2. I'm a SW player, and I agree. Especially with the introduction of the sub-codexes, I say wrap all SM into one book. That brings SM in line with the other factions since no other faction has multiple "main codexes". Plus, then there's less need for post-codex addendums like giving the AA guns to Dark Angels (if that's what they're planning to do) because all core rules for the main chapters will be created at the same time. Then the mini-dexes can expand upon the fluff, and add to the chapter specific rules.

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    3. the Sisters are dead! :)

      just teasing, my buddy would cry. Has too many of the metal minis to let go!

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    4. I actually agree with the above, especially if they can find a way to make it happen (and actually work).

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    5. They're already making it work by rolling Black Templar into the SM Codex.

      I think in the long run they'd sell more models and Space Marine Codices and supplements if they condensed the Space Marines. That would be fewer Codices to release each edition, which means they could spend more time filling out those Codices, and making sure that entries don't go without models, and models don't age to the point of being obsolete (Looking at you Plague Marines).

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    6. agreed. definatly condensing the SM codexes would be good. especially because 90% of the SM specialty chapters don't, in the age of the codex supplement, deserve their own codex. Space wolves are fairly differnt that I'll give. but do blood angels and dark angels really NEED a seperate Codex? if you step back and look at them the blood angels have their death company and a special predator variant. sure they have variant rules for a varity of things, but they could certinly be turned into a simple simplement. Dark angels before they got their codex would have lost nothing with a supplement. even after their codex, the end result woulda been the los of deathwing knights, and the replacing of their fliers with the stormtalon and stormraven

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  16. As a long time fan I'm very sad to see them lose the autonomy, and lose all the potential they had to be an amazing army with their own niche. I was already imagining all the great models that could come of all of the BT. But alas it is not to be. Rowboat Girlyman finally beat us

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    1. They don't lose any of that. You'll see when you read it.

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  17. I'm curious as to how this move will effect the allies chart which has a separate line specifically for Black Templars. Can someone playing codex space marines use either one now to suit their purposes?

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    1. it appears pretty straightforward: the BT codex will be invalidated, as will therefore any reference to it in the allies chat. For purposes of allies, they will be treated as C:SM. Of course, it's possible that a BT supplement or the BT entry in the codex could amend this -- in which the answer will be equally straight forward. But to me at least those would be the two logical possibilities.

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    2. The matrix will still work if BTs get a supplement. The Farsight Enclave supplement turned them into a separate Tau army that can ally with codex Tau (and the standard Tau allies, from what I know of it), so all it'd take is a similar treatment.

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  18. Ive read the actual quote. Theres no hint towards a supplement. Just Cruddance encouraging Ultra Templars to buy new models.

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  19. Mark my words, you will see more black Templars on the table than ever before.

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    1. Why is that? They can already take land raiders as dedicated transports, as well as storm ravens, talons and most other SM funky bits. Apart from a possible basic point reduction, this offers Templars nothing they don't already have

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    2. Because they'll be cheap on ebay :/ Too soon? In all seriousness people getting into the hobby would stay away from them because of their old codex and lack of support, people buy into the space marine codex because of the flexibility and support. A black Templar army is no longer an up front decision, buy the marine codex, try different chapters with your unpainted models and decide what you like the best. GW has no doubt gone out of their way to make this a standout chapter in the new dex and it'll be an obvious decision for alot of new players as well as older players that have not yet fully settled on a chapter from the 5th Ed codex.

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    3. @JaggedRedLine: You know what this gives you? Updates every edition, more consistent attention, and from the sound of things, more toys without just copying them from another book.

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    4. Yes, but it also means we lose any potential to grow in a unique way. Templars had so much raw potential, they could have introduced so many new knight or penitent themed units that would have really made this a stand out army. Instead, we're ultramarines painted black with a few basic things carried over like ec, crusader squads and lrc

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    5. There was a cost to buying a bunch of LRCs and especially since GW handed them out like popcorn to everyone else. Sure, there is fun to being able to build a 2000 point list using two HQ slots and two Troop slots while only placing three LRCs down on the table at deployment, but really...

      The cheap Typhoons & Drop Pods were a wash with the expensive Rhinos & Razorbacks. The question being...a lot of strength to BT until the 6th FAQ meganerf was being able to do things differently (dual weapon MSU, Vet skills) that are still somewhat applicable, but being "brought in line" with all Marines potentially will kill that. Heh, in fact, the Wolves are the only other Marine codex out there with the Templars...the reason being that neither one of them are even making a pretense of being a Codex chapter.

      The Wolves are probably at least a pocket Legion (~2000 Marines) and the Templars are probably a full Legion.

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  20. Two birds with one stone means: ORKTOBER WAAAAGH!

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    1. I still have my doubts about back to back 40k codexes, no fantasy, no mystery box. We'll see though :)

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    2. Mystery boxes will not disrupt the core game releases anymore. They've divided all of these things up into different teams.

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    3. Maybe. Just because they can release multiple things in a month, doesn't mean they will.

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  21. This is cool, Fists and Templars in one force, and they can still have allies on top.

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  22. Black Templars get "cruddaxed".:)

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  23. Sigh
    Shrug

    I for one would have liked Templars to get their own Codex. But then, I'm wanting to collect Space Marines anyway so this doesn't effect me.

    Moments silence for the Templar fans who are now gutted, despite all the "chapter tactics" stuff.

    I'm not being sarcastic, I really wanted Templars to have their own Codex. Dark Angels and Blood Angels should have been put in Codex Space Marines, not Black Templars who are more "uncodex" than Space Wolves.

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    1. They will still be plenty "uncodex" once you read about them, Thamos.

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    2. Why would I read about them?

      Ever since I first picked up my very own Codex Space Marines which was in the time of "doctrines" I've been working on my very own "Codex" Chapter. Same as Imperial Guard.

      Then came Dawn of War. Though not a computer game fan, I picked it up and spent more time changing colours and working out names. Same with the Guard and Chaos Space Marines.

      Now I've got Deathwatch: Rites of Battle and minutes before checking my computer I was considering the Chapter Creation.

      I've just remembered. One of the pre-Dawn of War ideas I had was a Black Templar successor which was more "Codex" than "crusade".

      Creepy.

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    3. Anyone else get the distinct impression that McD knows more than he's letting on?

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    4. He is awfully smug, isn't he?

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    5. 2 days ago he was denying BT would be in the codex, think he just has faith that things will be done in a manner that will make people happy.

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  24. Gary, do you have a revised release schedule on your platter after this amazing news?

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    1. I have a theoretical release schedule over on 40kwarzone

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    2. working on it. but I have new information for a couple dexes

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  25. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

    Maybe it will be well done, maybe I will be able to build a distinct and characterful army. Maybe not. Either way they are one of the few chapters that outright reject the codex and they should never have been rolled into it. I am gutted.

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    1. Its Codex Space Marines though, not Codex Astartes, you should be able to build a non-codex compliant force if they handled the rules side correctly, I mean BT only have a few special characters, sword bretheren and crusaders. Being built from the same codex doesn't mean you follow the same philosophy, I mean Tzeentch and Nurgle are in the same codex too

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  26. I feel of two minds about this.

    On one hand, it's a slap in the face specifically because the BT's used the Codex Astartes for Kitchen Roll, Toilet Paper and other such utilities when they were given their copies, and they decided instead to pick up a bolt pistol and chainsword and go a'huntin' - so while they use one or two units from the SM Codex (such as Land Raiders), they're different enough to warrant their own book, like the Space Wolves. I also think that the Blood Angels and Dark Angels (who are Codex compliant with some very minor changes) would have been more suitable for rolling in.

    That being said, this means that BT's might (to be taken with salt naturally) be getting the Supplement treatment as others have mentioned. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But it means there might be a tiny sliver of hope somewhere down the line. It also means that the faction isn't completely squatted, and that there's some support going on.

    Speaking of, I believe the actual reason for the Squats being, well...Squatted was because the designers simply couldn't update them properly and had to go though various revisions, none of which worked. It is possible that the same thing happened to BT's as well.

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    1. The real reason that squats died was because the writers at the time didn't get around to it because they didn't get any creative motivation. They just never got interested in the Squats, these are pretty much the words I read from one of the codex writers.

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    2. Squats also never sold a damn thing. That happened before the lack of inspiration.

      Black Templars won't be losing anything here, and the argument that, "BA & DA are more codex and thus should be rolled in" is not valid. I'm sorry, it's not.

      For one, DA & BA have had player support since the beginning of the game; Black Templars have not. Dark Angels and Blood Angels have always sold well; Black Templars have not (even when they got their own codex).

      Just because those two first-founding chapters are more codex than Black Templars doesn't mean they should have been horned in instead. Fluff can't drive that sort of thing. The players decide that with their wallets.

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    3. @Derek - Something like that, sadly my memory isn't as great as it once was.

      @McDoogle - Valid point, but my opinion remains the same. Yes, both BA & DA have had supplements in the past, but if there was going to be someone to roll in (that is if they had to and had utterly no choice but to do so - if it were me, I'd try to work something out before anyone got their book rolled in), the BT's are still a pretty poor choice I feel.

      Having said all that, I still see a separate supplement as a viable future prospect, so it's not all bad. Dissapointing, but I wouldn't refer to them as "Ultra Templars", especially given how much we actually know about the whole Chapter Tactics system (read: scarce).

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    4. @McDoogle Squats sold well and were pretty popular. Not sure where you are getting your info from, but you are misinformed. They killed a successful line due to writer's block, not sales. Personally, I hated the models so I'm glad they got the axe.

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    5. "so while they use one or two units from the SM Codex (such as Land Raiders), they're different enough to warrant their own book, like the Space Wolves."

      You know, I wish you were right, but check their codex, Heavy Support: identical to Codex: Space Marines, Fast Attack: Identical to Codex: Space Marines, Elites: Their Terminators have a different name (and some special rules) and their veteran squad are called sword brethren. Crusaders and their rules are the only really uniquely "BT" unit, asside from a few HQ's. The rest is pretty much codex space marines.

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    6. @Ian Logsdon - Honest confession? Never read the book. I know my younger brother for a time wanted to get into them, but I don't think that ever truly took off.

      Having said that, if the units were functionally identical, then I suppose that is as good a reason as any to fold them into the Codex. Though by that same argument as someone said above, it stands to reason a lot of improvement could have been made.

      I still remain hopeful that they may get a supplement, but to confess again - the BT's are pretty low on my possible bugbear's list (rules for the people who like making their own Chapters - which there is an audience for). But I'm still withholding final judgement until I have a copy of the book in my hands. I do like surprises after all X3

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    7. as a vanilla marine player I'm curious if this means vanilla marines will get the chaos marine treatment of being table to take a chainsword and or bolt gun

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    8. What is really poor for BT players, is that we won't get any new UNIQUE stuff.

      We were like DA in 4th, nothing really specific, and i guess we were all waitin for some new cool stuff, but from our own, not from C:SM.

      That is where i am really disapointed. I'm not sayin that they couldn't have been include in C:SM, just they shouldn't have been.

      Anyway, I trully understand why xenos think this is the right thing to do. But having a BT codex does not remove anything from you. This is just showing that having a codex every two month will just end up by a lack of creativity.

      BT aren't dead, they just are no more unique from now...

      Delete
  27. @Natfka (or anyone who's read it) Vows? Please. Chapter tactics doesn't necessarily mean vows but hopefully the vows are there (Tactics and vows both being army-wide special rules). If vows are there then its still Templars but if not they're just black ultras with mixed squads.

    ReplyDelete
  28. The unpainted and generic custom chapter players will gain an advantage of using BT rules for list building if they need it. Meanwhile BT players will see the unique options and flavor of Space Wolves and Blood Angels next year and realize they have been demoted to being just a color option in the C:SM.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wrong on all accounts. You haven't read it yet, so stop saying things you know nothing about.

      Delete
    2. It's never stopped me before! ;)

      Delete
    3. Have you, McDoogle? You like to drop hints on here as though you're in the know, but I'd love to see your credentials. You do have a disparaging view of the vast majority of the fan base, which I imagine means you're upwardly mobile. A play tester perhaps?

      Delete
    4. he is arrogant isn't he, my god. I would like to know how he knows too, because he has been wrong even recently.

      Delete
  29. I would have liked the BT to have their own codex if nothing more for than for the passion those players have for them. As for myself personally, I'm thrilled about it. It gives me and many other SM players the opportunity to know that passion without fully committing to another army.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All 7 players did have passion; but try and tell me all factions don't have an exceedingly loyal following. Their fans are no more passionate than any others. Besides, people aren't limited to sticking with just one army (unless they are terrible at managing their own money). GW produces based on inspiration, and what players have chosen with their wallets. Black Templars didn't receive much customer love even with their own book.

      Delete
    2. Really? How long are you talking about? When the Armageddon supplement came out literally everyone was playing BT. The codex that followed may not have done well because it was not different enough from the generic SM codex. That's due to a lack of imagination of the design team. The majority of Templar players liked them because they saw what they could be. That's the reason why we feel let down.

      Delete
  30. I hope the Exorcists chapter still gets some limelight. They get briefly touched on in e 5th Ed codex and I'd love to see more on them, even if they are a 13th founding chapter.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Imperial armour 10 is what you want to read then.

      Delete
  31. On the upside, it means one codex between my blood angels 10th company and my mate's black templars crusaders. Till we get supps anyway.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. blood angels, still have their own codex don't they?

      Delete
  32. With this, I just find weird they didnt also added the Blood Angels in there. Apart the fact the have an extra Predator, Dreadnought and the Death Company, they follow the Space Marines.

    Will have been easy to say only the Blood Angels can access this, this and this if what about the Black Templars is true.
    After releasing a BA Supplement and they will have kill a Space Marines codex!

    Now they will have to come up with new shiny toys only for the Blood Angels, feel weird...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Blood Angels had 7 unique units (we lost the Stormraven) and a boat load of Special Characters. Personally, I wouldn't care if they folded us in, but we're a different animal. It just wouldn't work. If there are rules for 30 legions in there as rumored, I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in there for Blood Angels.

      Delete
    2. Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if that skimmer assault tank that was rumored is for Blood Angels.

      Delete
    3. It's actually 2 special dreads (Furioso, Death Company, and the Furioso can be upgraded to a Librarian dread so really 3), Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predators, Elite chaplains, 3 per slot sanguinary priests, plus all the fast versions of vehicles.

      Its a lot more than the black templars, which pretty much have the emperor's champion and crusaders, and sword brethren.

      I am hoping they did the BT justice in the new book and that they will enjoy a resurgence, it can only be better than what they are stuck with now.

      Delete
    4. Well BA was a 5th edition codex so they must have a few more unique items then Templars, a 4th edition codex.
      Templars could have had a lot of new uniqueness to make them comparable to BA SW & DA, so what makes them so unworthy?
      Lets just combine them all into the super marine book, and give everyone their own supplement.

      Delete
  33. You mentioned before that Space Wolves will be getting their own codex. You have also been saying the Space Marines codex will have founding chapter specific items. Any idea if this will include SW stuff? I'm just curious if I need to get the SM codex.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "*Each of the first founding chapters and the Black Templar have access to unique chapter tactics for their chapter. "
      This would seem to imply that Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels,etc... would be in the new dex?

      Delete
    2. I've been curious about that myself. I'd like to at least get access to the AA stuff, even if it's just via errata to make that legal for the SW Codex.

      Delete
    3. Lets not jump to conclusions, the phrase "each of the first founding chapters" would logically be referring to the 6 that are handled by Codex: Space Marines, unless the author explicitly mentions something beyond that, you're over-analyzing.

      Delete
  34. Well, I have been playing Space Marines Black Templars. I stopped, waiting for their update to 6th because I want to play a Space Marine Crusading army of Hatred and Zeal! Whether the book that has their rules is along with others is inconsequential. My only issue is that I would like to pay for what I want and that is Black Templar Rules! I am sure that if it was only a Black Templar codex I wouldn't be saving much money... As was said a few times, We shall see when September comes what the Black Templars will be like and whether they will maintain their "Fluff". By the looks of the 6th Ed rules I am not concerned.
    To finish off, Dark Angels were the first with a 6th Ed treatment. Are they not part of "Codex Marines"?

    ReplyDelete
  35. This is a lose-lose. BT players are not getting their own dedicated Codex and Vanilla players have to pay more for a larger Codex with sections they won't use.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So how much more must we pay for the new Codex over the Dark Angels?

      Delete
    2. Rumors have it at $58 which isn't much more. Not sure I believe that though.

      Delete
    3. So.... I don't see me spending any more because other army option are in the book?

      Delete
  36. Each of the founding chapters..... does that mean that there will be info on Blood Angels and Space Wolves, as well? Also, Grey Knights.... are they unique or will there be info regarding them as well? Im curious about the consistency?

    ReplyDelete
  37. Complaining that the BT got rolled into the codex, but looking at the Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, who do not have there own dedicated codex and who not just a few that are just as different as Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Black Templar's will have there own Chapter Tactics rules, and fully committed to the army. Also I believe that GW is actually working towards making every army that is now actually represented and flushed out into its own unique army. Most likely will Chapter Bonus' that will make each so different. Another thing I have been seeing with GW is they are making so that building a kills all list is almost impossible, but actually making it so people can build armies, and each can be different and preform just as well. Just the fact GW has made sure that BT's will be forever a competitor in tournies, updated in ways that was never before seen for BT's. And for a second founding chapter, I think they are better off. At least more people will be Templar's. I'm more excited to see Iron Hands honestly, but I will be one of those a-holes playing counts as Templar's at least once.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Complaining that the BT got rolled into the codex, but looking at the Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, who do not have there own dedicated codex and who not just a few that are just as different as Blood Angels and Dark Angels."

      Never having a codex is not the same as having an existing codex invalidated.

      Delete
    2. "Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists" All conform to the Codex Astartes, save for differences in ranking name. Blood Angels do in a loose sense. Dark Angels do not, as they are secretly still behaving as a legion (successor chapters report to and follow orders from the DA Chapter Master) and have a different chapter structure for 1st and 2nd company and ranking positions. Space Wolves... they used the Codex Astartes as napkins and/or toilet paper.

      Delete
  38. BT cover is up via 4chan. No Raymond Swanland. Its very meh and not worth the money IMO.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Guys really, the Black Templars were the only 2nd founding chapter with a standalone codex, all the others were old Legions with Primarchs. So why do you all rage against the decision from GW by putting them inside C:SM? Imo they belong to the other 2nd founding chapters like White Scars, Flesh Tearers, Crimson Fists and so on! Just be happy, that the new C:SM is not C:Ultramarines. Maybe you guys can hope for a supplement for your beloved 2nd Founding chapters.
    And in case you forgot, there were nine(+2 unknown) traitor legions which neither have a standalone codex nor an own supplement, yet.

    Best wishes for all you BT zealots.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Psst...the White Scars aren't Second Founding. ;)

      Delete
    2. GW released the original BT book to showcase the most Codex divergent chapter around around. And it worked. Read the fluff. And to this day people are still fanatically defending the book. GW got it right back then. To pull it now and deny the rabid fanbase is a huge mistake, morally from a customer service standpoint and sloppy from a business standpoint of sellig a seperate BT book and models. Bottom line.

      Delete
    3. Woot! Black Templaaaarrrss! That's mister Angry Zealot!

      Delete
    4. The Black Templars have a number count that ranges from 3000+ Marines. They do not follow the Codex Astartes at all. They're the flipping space Nazis of the 41st millennium, the polar opposite of the reasonable mary sue Ultramarines.

      The ONLY reason it makes sense that they be put in C:SM is that they don't have any unique units, and only 3 unique model kits, 2 of which are special characters.

      GW gave up on them and can't be arsed to reinvent them like Blood Angels or Dark Angels, who both follow most of the Codex Astartes to the letter.

      BT players have a right to be angry- they've been backstabbed and left in a ditch to grab for the dirt that is the revised rules in the new Codex. Can any BT player honestly say they are looking forward to fielding Termietubbies?

      Delete
    5. *By unique units I meant models, my bad

      Delete
  40. this is STUPID!!!
    Templars in SM Codex???
    BULLSHIT!!!!
    FUCK YOU all who says this is good.
    FUCK YOU GAMESWORKSHOP!!!!
    wish your company be BURNED!!!!
    I QUIT

    ReplyDelete
  41. Oh boy... I get an update for my army at the cost of everything I wanted to play the army for. Thanks GW.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Personally, I hope that you are all wrong and the section in the Marines book is concise, full of the Black Templar Zealotry awesomeness that I love 'bout playing Angry Marines.... BTW I have seen some awesome and competitive white scars, salamanders and Imperial Fist armies in the past... they all came from one book...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The fact that they came from one book is cold comfort. Those salamanders, imperial fists, and white scars all had the exact same flavor and could've been painted any color.

      Delete
  43. As a Templar player I'm actually going to be ok with this (disregarding my other posts), means I can have my Templars and celestial lions as part of the same army :D as long as the supplement is really good I'll be one very happy crusader

    ReplyDelete
  44. Some of the comments on here really make me wonder about the mental welfare of a significant proportion of 40k'ers.

    1- these are model soldiers we're talking about here, chill out for gods sake.
    2- Its a game, a science fiction fantasy wargame, not a sport.
    This isnt baseball, football, world politics, gun control or the meaning of life.
    If it gives you high blood pressure that your little toy men arent quite as good at pretending to kill other little toy men as they used to be; reconsider your lifestyle immediately, even if its just halveing your warhammer time by getting another hobby as well.
    3- Look at it this way, you still get to use your unique units..mixed squads in land raiders, champion etc whilst getting all the nice new space marine toys that dark angel players have to ally to take.
    4- At the end of the day no ones seen the book (no one whos telling anyway) so none of you need burst a blood vessel till details are clear.
    5-If you dont like the models, dont buy them, simple as. Gw wont be getting my money for a box of centurions. Surely your missing the point if you buy, assemble, and painstakingly paint mini's just because the rules are good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thx to teach everybody how to live their life. Maybe could we call you God?

      Get out of your pedestal, an get some respect instead.

      Maybe some guys are overreacting, but that's they way it means to be. Hobby, also called passion.

      Delete
    2. I agree Dark Angels are just the test bed for C:SM Just be glad that Black Templars are getting updated much much sooner!!

      Delete
    3. 1 and 2 - Piss off with your trivialization of the hobby, some people spend hundreds of pounds or dollars on their collections, you think they're going to just shuffle that under the carpet? Besides, in between ranting about the state of world affairs there's plenty of time to complain about stupid crap like this.

      3- The only unit that is completely unique to Black Templars other than SC's is the Crusader squad, which sucks balls. MEQ spam is crap and redundant in this edition.

      Having mixed squads in Land Raiders is an almost absolutely useless trait. Land Raider spam is not a viable build, and you can already take 3 regardless - if you're running an LR spam list, that's all you need.

      The Champion's effectiveness has yet to be seen, but given GW's track record with Captains and Chaplains, I would expect the worst.

      The AA tanks probably would have been given to C:BT anyway, just like the Storm Raven and Talon. The Termietubbies are just a joke, and I bet all the money in the world their rules will be too.

      4- This is an insult to BT players on the face of it.

      5- This is for granted anyway.

      Delete
    4. Groeldor - I would say I am fairly passionate about my hobby. Enough to buy, paint, blog, comment and spend time reading sites like this.

      I just dont think writing fuck off games workshop etc in capital letters really contributes anything apart from possibly demonstrating when passion steps over the line into obsession. Apologies if this came across as patronising.

      Sharpie - again I think your missing my point with talk of 'viable' builds and land raider spam. Games workshop even say themselves 40k isnt designed to be a competative game like chess on even monopoly, its two or more people having fun with their clothes on.
      Ive given games workshop thousands over the decades, but I do think my collection and the hobby itself is 'trivial' to be honest. Its an indulgence and an escape from the mundanaties of life. Id be heartbroken and inconsolable if I lost my collection in a house fire or something (dont go getting any ideas angry hobbyists) but at they end of the day they are just tiny space knights set in a made up world.

      Delete
  45. All depends on the actual rules. If these are good, than I am perfectly happy with this. Being able to access BT and other chapters without having to buy multiple books would be convenient.
    Actually, while it may sound like a heresy, I wouldn't mind at all if GW published one book with rules from apocalypse + standard 40k games + death from the skies. I could then take this and a codex to the table.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I'm an Ultramarine player, but my first exposure to the game was the Black Templars codex. I understand that many BT players aren't happy with this news, but I still don't understand why they believe that their army will be any more like Codex-compliant Marine armies than it is now.

    Other than Crusader Squads with Land Raider Crusader transports and Emperor's Champions (all of which are supposed to remain available only to Templars), what unique units do Black Templars have? They have their own HQs, but so do other Chapters. They have Sword Brethren Squads, but those are essentially Vanguard Squads without jump packs. I suppose there are Sword Brethren Terminator Command Squads, but Terminator Command Squads used to be available to Codex Marines, too (and maybe they will be again).

    Even the supposedly unique units are just variants of Codex Marine units. Crusader Squads are basically a mix of Tactical Marines and Scouts that are allowed to take a dedicated transport that all other Codex-compliant Chapters can take, although the latter have more restrictions. The Emperor's Champion is just a specialized HQ unit.

    Templars are different due to special rules like vows, but those rules take up about four pages in the current Templar codex and could easily be integrated into the new C:SM.

    If the problem is that the Templars aren't supposed to be compliant with the Codex Astartes, then Black Templar players should consider that Codex: Space Marines is a rulebook, not the Codex Astartes itself. The Templars' rules and units have significant overlap with those of Codex-compliant Chapters; the most pragmatic choice is to put them in the same book while listing the handful of deviations and exceptions.

    I doubt that Black Templar players will see a fundamental change in how their army operates when the new codex comes out. In the meantime, I suspect that a future supplement will be used to introduce larger deviations or even specialized units.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Totally agree.

      But being in the C:SM just mean: no specific stuff.

      Just as the DA get in the 6th.

      That's why i was expecting for my crusader.

      And now, we will be just like other chapter. Nothing "really" special.

      Anyway, we haven't the choice, GW isn't askin us for dat! We just have to deal with it, i guess.

      Delete
    2. "I doubt that Black Templar players will see a fundamental change in how their army operates when the new codex comes out. In the meantime,"


      That is completely the problem. Dark Angels got their own book with new stuff to play with. I am not concerned that most of them don't like it, that was an oversight on GW's part, regardless they still got new stuff. We were a codex book, they went out on limbs saying they would never do this very thing. I think it just stings us. For me personally I am left wondering what could have been, and what will never be.

      Good thing I have multiple armies. BTs were my only power armor army, because I admit I wanted to be a special snowflake compared to the regular marine players. That is sadly out the window. Moving on.

      Delete
  47. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  48. Orks, Tyranids and Eldar also follow the Codex Astartes? Because... they too have a... Codex? Say whaat? ;)

    Black Templars ARE Space Marines, and if they are getting own section of fluff, rules and exclusive models I'd say it's a pretty good deal.

    Opinions are like onions (no they aren't, though they really look a like ;), so I respect your visions as well, but my own humble thought is that it's much more reasonable to have all the cute power armoured fellas in the same book with as much diversion rules-wise as possible. The supplements however are a fantastic way of adding more fluff and rules to a specific chapter for the ones who really like a specific combat style/fluff.

    I for one have created a whole new chapter called "the Thirteenth Crusaders" with their own color scheme and fluff. Therefore I am never bound to any changes the designers are making. I will always be loyal to only myself :)

    One question I do have for all the haters (with a little flaming I admit). Isn't it in the first place the silliest, cheapest and most unimaginative way to claim black painted Space Marines with a bit of loin cloths and crosses as a totally different army? They are Space Marines for christ's (and Cruddace's) sake!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just to clarify, I'd roll BA, DA and the oh-so-grey knights there as well. Maybe the wolves too. When you kinda look at them, they are all Space Marines!

      Delete
    2. That would be in keeping with the situation... in the end it's 6 of 1 and a half-dozen of another...

      Delete
    3. To be honest this move DOES make sense if you look at it in how they did the CSM codex. They have always had different named models representing different legions and how they unlock a corresponding units and prevent other from being so.This makes sense with C:SM because of how they interact with each other. They have all at one time or another worked together. So as we the players get to reap the benefits of this co-operation as opposed to being punished by it. This even fits when you ask why BA, Space Wolves, GK, and DA are in a separate codexs because they all have an actual reason as to why they stand apart; they all have something to hide, and the GK aren't buddy buddy with the other chapters becuase they report to the Inquisition and would wipe out any of the other chapters if they even smell demonic taint. The BT are the opposite they not only don't care who joins them on a crusade, they often welcome it.

      Delete
  49. *Each of the first founding chapters and the Black Templar have access to unique chapter tactics for their chapter.
    *Imperial Fists are seige specialists and tank hunters
    *Salamanders are flame weapon experts
    *There are 30 successor chapters mentioned in the new codex.

    WHERE ARE MY WORLD EATER RULES GW???

    ReplyDelete
  50. When sixth hit I had a thought of their just being 2 maybe 3 marine books with the codex being first and biggest fitting base blood and dark angels and then a divergence codex with wolves and templars. End of the day its happening whether people want it to or not and it kind of fit's the time line is now firmly back In 3rd ed and were getting supplements again you never know it could be for the best

    ReplyDelete
  51. With everything I hear of this codex I become more excited. It promises so much, so please don't be a disappointment, okay?

    ReplyDelete
  52. I am to assume GW is still going to sell the BT upgrade pack so I can at least keep chaining up my weapons?

    ReplyDelete
  53. So why aren't Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels or Grey Knights in this?
    Why do they have to remove the only cool chapter that had its own codex and let the other shitty chapters have their own?

    ReplyDelete
  54. MY TEMPLAR BROTHERS: NEVER HAVE I BEEN MORE PROUD OF SUCH FURIOUS ZEAL. NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAL YOUR MIND AND RENOUNCE THE BINDING TENEMENTS OF THR CODEX ASTARTES. YOU HAVE WAGED YOUR OWN CRUSADES FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE NAME OF BIG DADDY GOLD. ACCEPT ANY CHALLENGE AND DEFY THE EDICTS OF THOSE WHO WOULD BELITTLE YOUR ACHEIVEMENTS. IMPERATOR VULT!!!

    ReplyDelete
  55. To be honest I think rolling black template into the codex space marine codex is a good idea. The bad idea in my opinion is that they didn't roll dark angels in too instead of giving them some overall pretty poor new units to try to make them more different.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Saying Templar didn't have many unique units before is not a valid argument in my opinion. Do you know how many unique units the other non-codex Marines had before they were updated in 5th edition? I love this faulty logic stuff. Of course Templar don't have many unique units; it's because Templar were waiting for an update to get those new units and models... you know, like every other Space Marine army.

    Black Templar players are mad because this update gives us nothing new. We get some new rules, but beyond that nothing at all. We'll have to wait and see until the codex comes out, but i have seen no new models, and no new units rumored for the Templar army... so we're stuck getting nothing new, except blue's toys (maybe)... that's not the same. Name another army since the Squats that got updated, that got no new units, no new models, still has to buy an upgrade box for their other units (thus raising the price per model to run), and lost their codex since... I don't know... the Squats... almost 30 years ago?

    That's part of the reason we Templar Players are a little mad.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I just want High Marshal Helbrecht to have Eternal Warrior and a Master-Crafted Relic Blade. Grimaldus needs to also have Eternal Warrior and more than just 2 wounds. All Frag and Krak Grenades should be free. I'm tired of paying extra points for grenades! If those issues are taken care of, then I'm a happy guy.

    ReplyDelete
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